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Thread: Ne and Ni

  1. #231
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    What I still don't get is that every brain does both of these, no matter how you describe it. (abstract rules from set of experiences, imagine possibilities from rules).

    :/

    People are saying "oh, well, I don't experience Nx so I can't speak for it but -" and then give something common to everyone.
    It's about which PATH one's thinking takes. The set of experiences applied are different. Ni takes Se-type experiences. Thus in-the-moment data can change the Ni-perception. Ne takes Si-type experiences. Thus only strongly embedded data affect the Ne-perception. All of the Ne perceptions must fit Si. Even if one is Ne dominant, the Si inferior limits where the Ne can "go". All of the Ni perceptions must fit Se.

    The overall effect is that Ne tends to relate "objects" to each other, or (w/r to INTPs) one conceives of an overall ideal system that describes everything that is, was, or could be. Ni tends to relate "processes" to each other, thus can match very dissimilar objects as being "the same" because they "work the same" in spite of being completely different things.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #232
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's about which PATH one's thinking takes. The set of experiences applied are different. Ni takes Se-type experiences. Thus in-the-moment data can change the Ni-perception. Ne takes Si-type experiences. Thus only strongly embedded data affect the Ne-perception. All of the Ne perceptions must fit Si. Even if one is Ne dominant, the Si inferior limits where the Ne can "go". All of the Ni perceptions must fit Se.

    The overall effect is that Ne tends to relate "objects" to each other, or (w/r to INTPs) one conceives of an overall ideal system that describes everything that is, was, or could be. Ni tends to relate "processes" to each other, thus can match very dissimilar objects as being "the same" because they "work the same" in spite of being completely different things.
    Okay, but I'm pretty sure everyone is capable of thinking in both modes...
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  3. #233
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    ^ That's why we invoke the power of preference.

  4. #234
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    ^ That's why we invoke the power of preference.
    Not what I'm reading into this thread.

    "I don't understand Ni! I don't use Ni at all! What is it!" yes you do, you silly goose.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  5. #235
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    Not what I'm reading into this thread.

    "I don't understand Ni! I don't use Ni at all! What is it!" yes you do, you silly goose.
    translation being, i don't understand Ni as described in the words Ni-primary users choose to explain it. you'll note that many times, Ni-over-Ne users prefer to be more succinct, and to leave their essential conclusions out of their writing. they often prefer to read less information, and choose to see that information in many lights, as opposed to the Ne preference of being given a lot of data to sift through, and presenting the conclusions up front. whereas Ni users may find that style to be muddied with too much information.

    it's like someone trying to describe a foreign fruit to you in a foreign language. it's not that you don't get the concept of fruit, but you have trouble recognizing it in the format being presented to you. the MBTI concept of N is a theoretical abstraction in itself... it's really no surprise that we have trouble communicating what we think it is, much less agreeing on a single conceptualization.

  6. #236
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Very interesting. So, what do you do once you find 'the answer' - once the problem at hand is resolved. Like, I work with INTJ scientists. They spend their whole lives working towards cures, answers, discoveries to very specific problems. What happens if they find the answer or finally solve the problem. Is it "mission accomplished - time to retire"? Or is it just simply, "move on to another problem"? Cuz, for instance, one of them truly believes that understanding one small bodily protein will unlock huge mysteries of the human body and health. He dedicates his entire existence to understanding this one object because he *knows* how important it is to overall human health. If he does make *the big discovery*, what would he do next? Just bask in his glory as a well-respected scientist? Or would he then "take up a new agenda"?
    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    My husband is an INTJ scientist, but he does the numerical/computer programming side of science, so he gets to contribute to many scientific problems. My impression is that if he solved one major problem, he would take time out to celebrate the victory, and then move on to the next big problem. It's also how he deals with his daily work. He likes to focus on one problem at a time, and once he has finished one major task, he'll take a quick break and move onto the next.
    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    What I still don't get is that every brain does both of these, no matter how you describe it. (abstract rules from set of experiences, imagine possibilities from rules).

    :/

    People are saying "oh, well, I don't experience Nx so I can't speak for it but -" and then give something common to everyone.


    This for example is just the behaviour pattern exhibited by a person motivated by a fixed-ratio reward schedule.
    Well that's true, and it's what I would do, also. So, it's true that it doesn't say much about Ne vs Ni.

    But, I was just answering INTP's question about INTJ scientists, since I'm married to one. Sorry to clutter up the thread with something that doesn't add any clarity to the thread topic....

  7. #237
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I realized a while ago when I was running some tests for my research that Ni is a bit like statistics. You're given a pile of raw data -- overwhelming pile of data -- and you have no idea what it means. Then you slowly run tests, one by one, to see if anything yields anything significant. Then you work out your meanings from there. It might sound a bit weird and if you've never been dumped with a pile of raw data, so here's a more concrete elaboration:

    Let's say you're doing a study where you give 10,000 people a questionnaire about their various beliefs (religious, social, political, ethical, etc.). You also collect data about their age, gender, socio-economic stuff, MBTI types, etc. So now, you have that pile of raw data on your desk and it's your job to figure out what it all means.

    There is no way on earth you're going to read through the 10,000 questionnaires and comprehend it. So all you can do is look at the data from different angles to see if there is anything you can conclude from it. How do you start? Select some variables and run a test. There are obvious things you can test, such as whether people from different age groups would hold different degrees of religious beliefs, or whether males or females are more left-winged or right-winged. But, with Ni, you are compelled to understand all there is to understand. So once the obvious ones have been exhausted, you start going to the less obvious ones, the really obscure ones, like whether Ti-doms are more likely to challenge their religious beliefs than other groups (which perhaps will send you filtering for subjects who test as IXTPs who were raised in religious families who answer "strongly agree" on the statement "I am very interested in learning in depth about other religions") -- no, but wait. Maybe the questions are not well-worded. Let's see if these Ti-doms came from areas with exposure to other religions to rule out the factor that being exposed to other religions from a very young age might have an effect. But, wait, maybe that's not right. Maybe people associate the statement with being 'tolerant'. Now let's look at these people's answers on statements concerning tolerance...

    ... and so on.

    In the end, what Ni is trying to get at, is the perfect understanding of all there is. In this study, you'll be at peace once you understand the effects resulting from each and every factor (and combinations of factors) you can find. Then, you will be able to understand the factors themselves. You will be able to define and describe everything -- and predict all the possible outcomes.

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  8. #238
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Well that's true, and it's what I would do, also. So, it's true that it doesn't say much about Ne vs Ni.

    But, I was just answering INTP's question about INTJ scientists, since I'm married to one. Sorry to clutter up the thread with something that doesn't add any clarity to the thread topic....
    lol, you're not the first, don't worry ;D

    in fact, if you had, you would be, IMO >.>
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  9. #239
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    lol, you're not the first, don't worry ;D

    in fact, if you had, you would be, IMO >.>
    Haha, I hear ya. I find the descriptions written by Nis difficult to follow sometimes. I thought there were some good posts in here, though!

  10. #240
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    the language is almost more of a hindrance than a helpful tool when trying to describe the seemingly invisible, imperceptible processes of perception while conveying and preserving the most useful, most relevant context that surrounds so many interactive processes embedded within larger processes (and all the while to others who have such qualitatively/fundamentally different ways of constructing and attending to experience). and the language itself is only prior usages and distinctions that must always be remade in order to more efficiently rank and organize contexts to provide the maximum meaning, most useful compression possible, in order to preserve scale and avoid errors of logical type. this is why it is so difficult to abstract Ne out of a larger system or Ni out of the context of Je while also trying to manage the linguistic possibilities of interpretation with words that can lose their essential meaning and in turn be rendered dead and hollow (so many "logical type" errors!). if you want to puzzle over Ni, read gregory bateson or douglas hofstadter (i would like more intjs in my life).

    it is also frustrating because language plays a more central role/somewhat different role? in organizing our learning. we store the contexts, the frames we construct, as semantic information, as psuedo-objective knowledge that is tagged within the existing language-culture infrastructure we have internalized, but we have made so many changes, an infinite number, that nothing quite means what it used to mean or what it may mean in the larger circulation pool. so we use language at a different stage in the process, not for definitional clarity like Ti, but for instituting conceptual blending grammatically, recursively, in order to build more complex, multi-faceted representations, models, that we keep and use to orient ourselves to what is (when the noise is focused, tuned into a more perfect schema, when new scales of understanding can be created to organize the depth field and reveal the essence underlying all possible meanings that we have been able to collectively create, investigate, test, and synthesize so far).

    Ne seems to use language more via previously stored historical contexts (Ji), a kind of decision structure event registry that primes Ne, or what i am currently calling the similarity finder, to generate (flood awareness with) all possible (unique to individual) ways of essentializing an object or process in the world with likes that could replace and be used to organize possible ways around, through, or past individual decisions (the Ji work part). it creates the most fluid, experimental story-process unfolding decision by decision, event by event (still selected based on parameters and discovery of relevance).

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