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Thread: Ne and Ni

  1. #221
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    but why not just read jung? i mean its the knowledge that you are after anyways
    1. Already have
    2. Don't speak German, so I'd lose something in translation
    3. Books are unfortunately dead and static
    4. I'm not after knowledge so much as understanding. I understand much more from formulation than recitation.
    5. If I should read anything, it would be the last 300 years of German philosophy, in the original German, to have the proper context. That's a monumental task, and I don't have the time right now.

    i know this, but the translation is done by professional jungian analysts, not just some random folks who do translations for living. its translated by H.G. Baynes, he was jungs apprentice. it was translated 1923(two after original), so i bet jung has reviewed the translation before it was published. if you read the text, you will see that its not just possibility, its all that you mentioned.. this is just another reason why precision is needed.
    Right, but that comes back to the twenty-word problem: English isn't a language that welcomes rumination. It much favors speed and clarity, which is why English appropriates loanwords so often - it's the concept that's important, and not the meaning thereof. Even if those translations are done by professionals, they ultimately represent an interpretation of Jung's work, and not the fullness of meaning embodied within the original text. Especially when we're talking about a language like German, where the placement of practically every word in the sentence impacts not only comprehension, but meaning, and words must be understood not only in light of their dictionary translation, but also the meaning of each component root.

    Point is, that's why the English translation of the text is of limited use. Deep, philosophical German's meant for rumination, but English is meant for debate and discussion.

  2. #222
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Even if those translations are done by professionals, they ultimately represent an interpretation of Jung's work
    but at least the interpretation is from someone who was thought by jung, someone who had one of the most precise and deepest understanding about what jung really meant
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    but at least the interpretation is from someone who was thought by jung, someone who had one of the most precise and deepest understanding about what jung really meant
    True. Now, figure out how to say it in English. Then, figure out if you feel the meaning in the same way that Jung did. Then, have Jung read over it again, even though his own words will be muddled by translation at this point.

    I mean, how do you explain to him that "possibility" means what he wrote, but is just slightly off in a way that I can't really describe? You really can't - he'd have to rewrite the whole damn thing in English just to convey the necessary shades of meaning. When dealing with dense material such as this, those shades make all the difference.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    True. Now, figure out how to say it in English. Then, figure out if you feel the meaning in the same way that Jung did. Then, have Jung read over it again, even though his own words will be muddled by translation at this point.

    I mean, how do you explain to him that "possibility" means what he wrote, but is just slightly off in a way that I can't really describe? You really can't - he'd have to rewrite the whole damn thing in English just to convey the necessary shades of meaning. When dealing with dense material such as this, those shades make all the difference.
    what did you say about not constantly seeking possibilities?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    what did you say about not constantly seeking possibilities?
    I'd say that's more "eventualities," thank you much!

  6. #226
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is good. I like hearing what kind of explanation works for non-Ni people.

    You probably won't like me for this, but there's an extra twist to the "one conclusion, outcome, resolution." The conclusion "wiggles."

    We don't know what the "right conclusion" is, yet, so we kind of fire "tracer bullets" and see where they land. (This is totally inside our heads, but occasionally our friends will hear this stream of consciousness thought pattern if we feel safe enough to share.) When the bullets miss, it looks like we just totally changed topics, or that we're going after a different goal, which isn't the case at all. Rather, the goal itself is very simple, usually along the lines of "any concrete resolution that satisfies the following conditions," which can be any of several disparate targets.

    It's why INTJs have the reputation for "contingency planning": something happens to make a target unachievable. We already have (or can quickly conceive of) several other targets that will satisfy the conditions, and we pick whichever one of those that looks most favorable and head towards it.

    Oh, and the goal can wiggle even more, due to other possibilities. E.g., given the list of conditions, we aren't above deleting a condition and checking whether it makes easier targets appear. This is no different than noting that of, say 10 requirements, 9 of them take all of 3 minutes to accomplish, but the 10th would take about a week. Is it worth a week to achieve that last requirement? Is that requirement totally necessary? Is a 3-minute, 90% solution satisfactory? Very often, the answer is "yes." And, sometimes, the answer is no, and we're stuck slogging our way to the goal for a week.
    I see. That helps. Thanks for expanding on the topic. I was going to say, "As an Ne user, I totally relate to your example of choosing 9 out of 10 requirements because 90% is good enough for a given task" - but, the more I think about it, I think that's a Ti thing that I do. Ti would think something very similar: "Dude, you can be done in 3 minutes with a very high quality outcome...don't even bother with requirement 10...it would take you all week. That would be stupid and inefficient. Now get to work, you bum!" And, certainly, Ti would go ahead and complete requirement #10 if not completing it would greatly sacrifice quality or compromise the overall goal.

    And I also relate to the "quickly seeing a new target" - kind of. What Ne/Ti do, is they get together and have a meeting.

    Ti: OK, Ne, we're going back to grad school. We need to find a good program. 1. Affordable, 2. decent reputation, 3. Coursework that we're interested in and that will help us with the direction we want to go, 4. In a place with good weather.
    Ne: I'll begin a nationwide search of all institutions and report back to you tomorrow morning, sir.
    Ti: Make it happen!
    *******
    Next morning:
    Ne: OK, there's several good programs out there. But, I've narrowed it down to the top 5 based on your parameters. There's a good program in California - weather is A+, a little expensive, close to family.......
    Ti: Yeah, we already lived in California. We're moving on to bigger and better things. What's next on your list?
    Ne: Texas. Good school, good reputation, affordable...
    Ti: Yeah, and what's the weather like in Houston right now? I didn't think so. Next?
    Ne: Florida.
    Ti: Next.
    Ne: Oklahoma.
    Ti: Continue.
    Ne: Good school, good reputation, fairly affordable, decent weather.
    Ti: Hmmm...not much to do in Oklahoma these days, but tell me where #5 is located.
    Ne: Virginia. Good reputation, good program - been gaining more notoriety in the field in recent years, very affordable, decent weather, fairly close to other northeast metro areas.
    Ti: OK. Give me the link for Oklahoma and Virginia so I can investigate. Now get out of my hair and leave me alone for a month.
    *****Ti spends the next 1 month dissecting every single thing about the programs in Virginia and Oklahoma. Makes numerous phone calls, talks to friends, colleagues, etc.
    1 month later:
    Ti: Book it, Danno! We're going to Virginia.
    Ne: Took you long enough!

    Now, if Virginia fell through, then Ti knows that Oklahoma is plan B, Texas is plan C, etc, etc. But, we do a lot of investigating, researching, thinking, pondering, considering until we know the programs like the back of our hand - we do all that investigating on the front side - before we ever make a single move. 85% of the excruciating research and in-depth analysis is done "up front". Now it's all done - everything we need to know has been "found out" - and now we can move into action with 99% certainty that it's going to go very smoothly, just how we expected it to. More times than not, it ends up being a breeze because we did our homework. When Ti does it's due diligence, does it's homework on the front side, it is extremely confident that it comes to the right decision based on the wealth of information that it took in on the topic. It's like showing up for a test knowing that you're going to ace it. You left no leaf unturned, so there is absolutely no way you'll get a B on the test. A+ is almost guaranteed. A- is worst case scenario. Only if Ti doesn't check everything out do things sometimes fall apart - because there are holes in the analysis - there are "unknowns" that will be revealed as surprises later on.

    But, if something doesn't go right, then Ne simply goes, "No problem, Ti. We've got lots of options. Do you want me to go back and do more searching? Search in Canada maybe? Europe? Hawaii? Alaska? Back to California? There are millions of options here, just let me know which direction you'd like me to go in!"
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #227
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Well, the 3 minutes vs 1 week is obvious when it's pointed out. What I've noticed, however, is that INTPs will tend toward the "of course the 1-week task is necessary -- if I omit any of these 10 requirements then I wouldn't achieve my goal." Usually, in a business context, I get feedback from an INTP along the lines of, "Well, OK, I see your point, but it's really annoying that we can't spend the week and do it right."

    For instance, notice your example plan didn't include, "How about I take a year or two and do some real life work? I could easily take a job as an intern or an entry-level programmer." Such an option would be especially attractive if financial aid or other practical circumstances didn't work out. No, your goal was constrained to "go to college", where a more Ni perspective would be "How could I best improve my knowledge and experience?" or even as general as "What is the best thing I could do next with my life?" See how "college" is more "concrete"? Also, Ti/Ne is, as you put it, more meticulous: it looks at all of the different "concrete" options, analyzes them all carefully, and picks the best one. The Ni/Te version is, interestingly enough, more like "winging it", almost instinctively knowing what option is next best should the selected option become unavailable. INTJs, in this regard, are more "reckless" than INTPs. Sort of.

    I never studied my options that meticulously. I knew that I'd not really have enough information. I just knew, in a general way, which I wanted based on broad brushstrokes. I will generally wait until I need to make the decision in order to have enough information to make it - almost as if I'm procrastinating, except I'm not.

    This is why, btw, that it can often be difficult to tell the difference between INTJs and INTPs. Logically, they arrive at very similar conclusions. The path to get there, however, is often very different for each.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #228
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, the 3 minutes vs 1 week is obvious when it's pointed out. What I've noticed, however, is that INTPs will tend toward the "of course the 1-week task is necessary -- if I omit any of these 10 requirements then I wouldn't achieve my goal." Usually, in a business context, I get feedback from an INTP along the lines of, "Well, OK, I see your point, but it's really annoying that we can't spend the week and do it right."

    For instance, notice your example plan didn't include, "How about I take a year or two and do some real life work? I could easily take a job as an intern or an entry-level programmer." Such an option would be especially attractive if financial aid or other practical circumstances didn't work out. No, your goal was constrained to "go to college", where a more Ni perspective would be "How could I best improve my knowledge and experience?" or even as general as "What is the best thing I could do next with my life?" See how "college" is more "concrete"? Also, Ti/Ne is, as you put it, more meticulous: it looks at all of the different "concrete" options, analyzes them all carefully, and picks the best one. The Ni/Te version is, interestingly enough, more like "winging it", almost instinctively knowing what option is next best should the selected option become unavailable. INTJs, in this regard, are more "reckless" than INTPs. Sort of.

    I never studied my options that meticulously. I knew that I'd not really have enough information. I just knew, in a general way, which I wanted based on broad brushstrokes. I will generally wait until I need to make the decision in order to have enough information to make it - almost as if I'm procrastinating, except I'm not.

    This is why, btw, that it can often be difficult to tell the difference between INTJs and INTPs. Logically, they arrive at very similar conclusions. The path to get there, however, is often very different for each.
    Interesting, I never thought of it quite that way but it does make sense. According to this I'm more like the INTP.
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  9. #229
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    What I still don't get is that every brain does both of these, no matter how you describe it. (abstract rules from set of experiences, imagine possibilities from rules).

    :/

    People are saying "oh, well, I don't experience Nx so I can't speak for it but -" and then give something common to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    My husband is an INTJ scientist, but he does the numerical/computer programming side of science, so he gets to contribute to many scientific problems. My impression is that if he solved one major problem, he would take time out to celebrate the victory, and then move on to the next big problem. It's also how he deals with his daily work. He likes to focus on one problem at a time, and once he has finished one major task, he'll take a quick break and move onto the next.
    This for example is just the behaviour pattern exhibited by a person motivated by a fixed-ratio reward schedule.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I see. That helps. Thanks for expanding on the topic. I was going to say, "As an Ne user, I totally relate to your example of choosing 9 out of 10 requirements because 90% is good enough for a given task" - but, the more I think about it, I think that's a Ti thing that I do.
    Case #2. You're taking two processes that are fundamentally subconscious and identical, and framing them as different 'cognitive functions'. Ok, so one is Ti and one is Ni. "But Claire," you protest! "What's important is how it happens!" Nay, I say, because you don't know how it happens, you post-rationalize. How it happens is the data is distributed to a bunch of relevant neural circuits, processed based on data that already exists in those circuits, and then and only then does an answer pop into your conscious mind where you can observe it. Sure, you can sort of check what memories and rules and what-not might have been activated, but this still doesn't give you a detailed mechanistic process, only a snapshot.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  10. #230
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, the 3 minutes vs 1 week is obvious when it's pointed out. What I've noticed, however, is that INTPs will tend toward the "of course the 1-week task is necessary -- if I omit any of these 10 requirements then I wouldn't achieve my goal." Usually, in a business context, I get feedback from an INTP along the lines of, "Well, OK, I see your point, but it's really annoying that we can't spend the week and do it right."

    For instance, notice your example plan didn't include, "How about I take a year or two and do some real life work? I could easily take a job as an intern or an entry-level programmer." Such an option would be especially attractive if financial aid or other practical circumstances didn't work out. No, your goal was constrained to "go to college", where a more Ni perspective would be "How could I best improve my knowledge and experience?" or even as general as "What is the best thing I could do next with my life?" See how "college" is more "concrete"? Also, Ti/Ne is, as you put it, more meticulous: it looks at all of the different "concrete" options, analyzes them all carefully, and picks the best one. The Ni/Te version is, interestingly enough, more like "winging it", almost instinctively knowing what option is next best should the selected option become unavailable. INTJs, in this regard, are more "reckless" than INTPs. Sort of.

    I never studied my options that meticulously. I knew that I'd not really have enough information. I just knew, in a general way, which I wanted based on broad brushstrokes. I will generally wait until I need to make the decision in order to have enough information to make it - almost as if I'm procrastinating, except I'm not.

    This is why, btw, that it can often be difficult to tell the difference between INTJs and INTPs. Logically, they arrive at very similar conclusions. The path to get there, however, is often very different for each.
    Yeah, that all makes sense. You guys are N-dom (with S 4th), while we are T-dom (and S 3rd) and so you guys, like ENTP's, are more "winging it". While INTP's and ENTJ's are more concrete. We appear to be winging it because we are so spacy and Ne. People see INTP's and they think "he's out to lunch, nutty professor" - but internally, things are very logical and orderly. And yes, sometimes we will do step #10 because we want perfection. That is true. We're still about efficiency though. I've certainly seen situations where I believe I'm being much more efficient than an INTJ co-worker. Yes, it happens. I know INTJ's don't like to believe it, but it does happen. There are times where I think, "in the time it took you to work your way through that, I could have been done 10 times over". Not often - INTJ's are efficient folks - but I'm just saying - as often as you think that your way is better than ours, is probably as often as we think our way is better than yours. Just sayin.

    The one thing you did get wrong in your post, however, is that I'm in my 30's with a well-established work history and will be holding down a full-time job while attending grad school. So, it's more of "how can I fit grad school into my working life" rather than a 22-year-old "I need an internship to boost my resume". And the specific states/details were examples to illustrate the process.

    But, yeah, thanks again for your explanations. Helped quite a bit!
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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