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Thread: Ne and Ni

  1. #211
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    yep. but because this particular matter needs the precision(not to make sense in some level, but to fully understand it), if the precision is not appreciated, that means that the understanding between Ni and Ne is not appreciated enough to focus on the precision(like i mentioned before). maybe Fi needs more value for the matter to look into more precise descriptions, but that just shows that those Fi people who dont want the precision doesent value the deeper understanding about this enough. im ok with that, like i said, i dont mind if someone doesent want to read the whole text
    Not sure I agree with normative statements like "valu[ing] the deeper understanding about this enough." It may be that their deeper understanding of the subject is simply different from, and not inferior to, our own. At the same time, I'm not criticizing the "Ne-outward; Ni-inward" distinction solely because it's imprecise, but because that imprecision, to me, misrepresents the core of the essential meaning, and presents an image of Ne-dominance that drastically differs from my own experience of it. I don't "constantly seek possibilities" so much as I pick up fairly quickly that one thing means a whole lot of other things, and that those things could mean even more. I'm not always looking to the future; I'm also often looking to the past to make sense of how we got to where we are today, and what pieces of the puzzle I'm missing. Ne, for me, is playful, but it's not childish or childlike in the least bit, as portrayals often make it out to be.

  2. #212
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    absurd could be described as childlike tho and i do see many ne users who appreciate absurdity but it doesn't mean that is the only expression of it.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not sure I agree with normative statements like "valu[ing] the deeper understanding about this enough." It may be that their deeper understanding of the subject is simply different from, and not inferior to, our own. At the same time, I'm not criticizing the "Ne-outward; Ni-inward" distinction solely because it's imprecise, but because that imprecision, to me, misrepresents the core of the essential meaning, and presents an image of Ne-dominance that drastically differs from my own experience of it.
    see below

    I don't "constantly seek possibilities" so much as I pick up fairly quickly that one thing means a whole lot of other things, and that those things could mean even more. I'm not always looking to the future; I'm also often looking to the past to make sense of how we got to where we are today, and what pieces of the puzzle I'm missing. Ne, for me, is playful, but it's not childish or childlike in the least bit, as portrayals often make it out to be.
    this is exactly the point. you say that you dont constantly seek possibilities, but the reason why you say that, is because you dont understand the whole point what jung meant with 'constantly seeking possibilities'. its not merely trying to figure out what you can do with an action figure and matches, its what creates the essentials needed for the underlined parts. jung is talking about the essentials of pretty much everything(which effect the whole mind in many different ways and in order to have deep understanding abut his work, you need to understand the essentials correctly), not the things more in the "surface"(like the underlined).

    not being precise enough about stuff this complicated is the reason why the misconceptions about words happen, like in your case with the 'constantly seeking possibilities'. without precise explanations words get their meaning from who ever is interpreting them and because jung is so precise on his wording, giving even slightly wrong meaning to some words could distort the meaning of the whole thing(or some essential parts of it).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    yep. but because this particular matter needs the precision(not to make sense in some level, but to fully understand it), if the precision is not appreciated, that means that the understanding between Ni and Ne is not appreciated enough to focus on the precision(like i mentioned before). maybe Fi needs more value for the matter to look into more precise descriptions, but that just shows that those Fi people who dont want the precision doesent value the deeper understanding about this enough. im ok with that, like i said, i dont mind if someone doesent want to read the whole text
    OR

    We get "it" already and don't need a longer explanation.

    Oaky's post + Sky's post + INTPness' visual aid = epiphany, understanding, and a bowl of mango slices.


  5. #215
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    the bunE has a point
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #216
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    Barely anyone who enters the thread will read it. Be slightly more tactful and summarise to allow those who do not understand to understand things in a more 'for dummies' way.


    Most have Ne down correctly.
    But as for Ni...
    Ni is not: "poof" an idea, which appears out of nowhere.

    It is the analysis of the object within different dimensions to be able to see what the object may or may not be.

    Let us take an object:

    Humans:

    - Homosapiens
    - Molecules
    - Moving objects
    - Assembly of organs
    - Tools of war

    All such thoughts are what humans could be. Note: Every thought is connected to the object.

    Cartoon:

    - Lines and colours
    - Light
    - Pleasing sensory perceptions
    - Distorted beings
    - Many pictures
    - Surrealism

    All the such thoughts are what cartoons are, in different perceptions. Again, every thought is connected to the object. Not move on tangents as Ne tends to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it seems like Ne and Ni move opposite. i've heard all the functions + attitudes described as "conveyor belts" which can be switched clockwise/counterclockwise before, and i can see this on an "N" belt.

    Ne, clearly, moves outward. you start at one point and look out into all the things it could be.

    Ni, as oaky has demonstrated, moves inward. it takes all the points and finds the least common denominator.

    they both share the philosophy that all things are, in essence, one thing. for Ne, one thing can become many things. for Ni, many things are, when distilled, one thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Maybe something like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Well, yeah, Ni is about focusing/honing in on something. Sticking to an idea, building upon it, taking other seemingly unrelated (but related) things to build upon that same idea. Not branching out into multiple ideas. It's always honing inwards and focusing on something, and sticking to that - aiming to grasp that 'one thing'/'truth' relevant to the situation at hand. Wanting that closure/resolution/finality/'answer' to that thing.

    Anyway, I think this is my all-time favorite Ni thread on the forums... http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...what-hell.html
    Thank you guys for the above posts. I had the Ne down, but Ni is always so vague and up for interpretation. This is all very applicable, I'm understanding a lot better now. (Posts all happen to compliment each other nicely too, each post helping the other- complete with pictures! )
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    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
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  7. #217
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    absurd could be described as childlike tho and i do see many ne users who appreciate absurdity but it doesn't mean that is the only expression of it.
    It's funny, because for me, a childlike view is to take the world for what it is, uncritically. It's only when you get older, and understand that things generally follow from one another, that a person can appreciate the absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    this is exactly the point. you say that you dont constantly seek possibilities, but the reason why you say that, is because you dont understand the whole point what jung meant with 'constantly seeking possibilities'. its not merely trying to figure out what you can do with an action figure and matches, its what creates the essentials needed for the underlined parts. jung is talking about the essentials of pretty much everything, not the things more in the "surface"(like the underlined).
    The part you're not seeing, though, is that I do understand how Jung meant it. However, I'm also not in a discussion with Jungian experts, but rather, a bunch of lay people who are interested in learning more about themselves, and about others. So, while Jung might mean one specific thing when he wrote in German, I notice a lot of people interpreting it in another way in English.

    Let's also return to the word itself: Möglichkeit. Yes, "possibility" is a common way to translate this word. However, one may also translate it as "option," "chance," "eventuality," or "capability." Indeed, it means all of these things wrapped up together. I would agree that my experience of Ne involves seeking one or all of these principles in any given situation. However, simply limiting it to the connotation and denotation of "possibility" prevents it from hitting the mark. Those options, chances, eventualities, and capabilities all arise from categorizations, after all.

    not being precise enough about stuff this complicated is the reason why the misconceptions about words happen, like in your case with the 'constantly seeking possibilities'. without precise explanations words get their meaning from who ever is interpreting them and because jung is so precise on his wording, giving even slightly wrong meaning to some words could distort the meaning of the whole thing(or some essential parts of it).
    Honestly, I think it's the language divide more than anything. German nouns, especially for the philosophical and the psychological, have such distinct differences in their shades of meaning compared to their English equivalents.

  8. #218
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    sure yeah i can agree with that maybe i misunderstood your meaning then??
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #219
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Ni is now cooler than I ever imagined. I couldnt grasp it, no matter how much I read about it. Now the light bulb has gone off. Thanks to all who contributed to that. I have a new found respect for the processes of Ni. Not that I didn't respect my colleagues/co-workers before, but now I understand better why they are so focused and determined toward one conclusion, outcome, resolution. Whereas I'm like, "what about this? what about that? Have you considered this? Ohh, look, a bird. Ahhh, science is cool, but I also like art. Oh, what's on TV? I like seafood. What's your name? His name is Bob. I have a fishing bob. Have you ever gone fishing? Fishing = seafood = mmmm!" And the INTJ's are like:
    This is good. I like hearing what kind of explanation works for non-Ni people.

    You probably won't like me for this, but there's an extra twist to the "one conclusion, outcome, resolution." The conclusion "wiggles."

    We don't know what the "right conclusion" is, yet, so we kind of fire "tracer bullets" and see where they land. (This is totally inside our heads, but occasionally our friends will hear this stream of consciousness thought pattern if we feel safe enough to share.) When the bullets miss, it looks like we just totally changed topics, or that we're going after a different goal, which isn't the case at all. Rather, the goal itself is very simple, usually along the lines of "any concrete resolution that satisfies the following conditions," which can be any of several disparate targets.

    It's why INTJs have the reputation for "contingency planning": something happens to make a target unachievable. We already have (or can quickly conceive of) several other targets that will satisfy the conditions, and we pick whichever one of those that looks most favorable and head towards it.

    Oh, and the goal can wiggle even more, due to other possibilities. E.g., given the list of conditions, we aren't above deleting a condition and checking whether it makes easier targets appear. This is no different than noting that of, say 10 requirements, 9 of them take all of 3 minutes to accomplish, but the 10th would take about a week. Is it worth a week to achieve that last requirement? Is that requirement totally necessary? Is a 3-minute, 90% solution satisfactory? Very often, the answer is "yes." And, sometimes, the answer is no, and we're stuck slogging our way to the goal for a week.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #220
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The part you're not seeing, though, is that I do understand how Jung meant it. However, I'm also not in a discussion with Jungian experts, but rather, a bunch of lay people who are interested in learning more about themselves, and about others. So, while Jung might mean one specific thing when he wrote in German, I notice a lot of people interpreting it in another way in English.
    but why not just read jung? i mean its the knowledge that you are after anyways

    Let's also return to the word itself: Möglichkeit. Yes, "possibility" is a common way to translate this word. However, one may also translate it as "option," "chance," "eventuality," or "capability." Indeed, it means all of these things wrapped up together. I would agree that my experience of Ne involves seeking one or all of these principles in any given situation. However, simply limiting it to the connotation and denotation of "possibility" prevents it from hitting the mark. Those options, chances, eventualities, and capabilities all arise from categorizations, after all.

    Honestly, I think it's the language divide more than anything. German nouns, especially for the philosophical and the psychological, have such distinct differences in their shades of meaning compared to their English equivalents.
    i know this, but the translation is done by professional jungian analysts, not just some random folks who do translations for living. its translated by H.G. Baynes, he was jungs apprentice. it was translated 1923(two after original), so i bet jung has reviewed the translation before it was published. if you read the text, you will see that its not just possibility, its all that you mentioned.. this is just another reason why precision is needed.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

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