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Thread: Ne and Ni

  1. #121


    What makes them both N, then?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  2. #122
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    The process of abstracting information from the data.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #123


    Okay that makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    From INTJ perspective things look like this. (if we presume that the function order is correct)

    Ni leads in every way as a way of perciving thing and feeds the Te. The Te then decides what to do, how to do and when to do. The only task of the Se here is to make sure that you can read and that you don't fall down stairs.
    Hmm... the way you describe it makes me wonder whether Ne/Si (and Se/Ni) are really that interconnected at all. I mean, it almost seems, at least based on what I read on the forum, that Te is really linked with Fi, and the same for Fe and Ti. Almost as though humanity can be divided into Te/Fi and Fe/Ti people. However, when we talk about sensing and intuition, it's more like we categorize people as a sensor or an intuitive, do you know what I mean? Is there a reason for that, or am I just not picking up on some subtleties or something? Or do you think that we are over-simplifying it?

    Also, is there a non-tangible side to Se? What I mean by this is that Si seems to be about an internal library almost, of facts and information and sensations, so Si is not purely physical... but is there a part of Se that's not purely physical?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  4. #124


    [QUOTE]I mean, it almost seems, at least based on what I read on the forum, that Te is really linked with Fi, and the same for Fe and Ti./QUOTE]

    All of these are linked in a way. Functions are not used individually. People are not that simple so they are often mixed.

    For example: Some can use their leverage and influence (Ti) to purposefully make social connections (Fe)

    Or.. Some could organize data or ideas in a chart (Te) based on what is important to you (Fi)

    The same goes for the perception functions.

    Also, I always understood Ni as gathering a meta perspective or this kind of all encompassing vision. Instead of thinking within the box (Si) or see multiple options (Ne) it describes the system. This allows the person to use the system in ways it wasn't meant to be used. Think about the Matrix. He uses the flaws in the programming against other programs or agents for his benefit.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    Ne and Ni are supposedly the most confusing functions people try and make out. There are many false explanations I've seen before so hopefully this thread will make things clear.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Array KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Okay that makes sense to me.

    Hmm... the way you describe it makes me wonder whether Ne/Si (and Se/Ni) are really that interconnected at all.

    Some people who don't provide their "Ne" with enough experience probably fall back on Si for their conclusions a little. It can skew things, I bet.

    Could be the same for Se/Ni, but not as likely, I think. Se is... needier for experiences.

  7. #127
    Energizer Bunny Array Resonance's Avatar
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    Default Comparing Ni and Ne

    I know the question of what distinguishes Ne from Ni comes up a lot and everyone has different perspectives, so if nothing else just post your own idea of what it is, and we can see about discussing and at least make sure everyone's perspectives are out there so we can pick what seems 'right' to us.

    There are probably some older threads on the topic, but I looked through some pages and only saw more specialized discussions.


    The reason I'm wondering about this is because I've pretty much 'locked in' that I use Fe with people IRL and Ti for analysis/debates/work/etc, regardless of what meaning I'm going by. And N has always been unquestionably tops. So that leaves either Ni-Fe-Ti-Se (INFJ) or Ne-Ti-Fe-Se (ENTP).

    Based on my apparent overuse of Ti, many people want to pin me as ENTP. But on the other hand, a lot of comparisons consist of "Ni-Te" vs "Ne-Ti" interactions - in debates and humour and so on, so it's hard to discern where Ti ends and some sort of N begins. I'd rather leave it up to a more general examination of Ni vs. Ne, because I feel like that's really the crux of the difference. In my case, I'm interested in the interactions of Ni-Fe, Ni-Ti, Ne-Ti, and Ne-Fe, but the inverse is probably relevant to some other people so by all means, go all-out.

    For this reason, please don't just post "You seem [type/function] to me" unless it will help contextualize your explanation.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  8. #128
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    Ne is random, tangential, and follows it's own bizarre path through the shrubbery maze. Ne is the idea generator that comes up with hundreds, thousands, millions of possibilities. Ne likes/needs something else to play with it to be at its best.

    Ni goes it alone. Walks into the swarming cloud of ideas and plucks one (at seemingly random to the Ne observer) and says, "This is the right one." And by gum, it usually is the right one.

  9. #129
    mod love baby... Array Lady_X's Avatar
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    it is hard to imagine not knowing if you were infj or entp...they seem sooo different to me....infjs are like the all knowing oracle...sitting there all poised with pure eloquence spilling from their lips...while ne doms are spazzy lil plate spinners telling jokes and doing tricks.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jung - Psychological types

    Intuition as the function of unconscious perception is wholly directed upon outer objects in the extraverted attitude. Because, in the main, intuition is an unconscious process, the conscious apprehension of its nature is a very difficult matter. In consciousness, the intuitive function is represented by a certain attitude of expectation, a perceptive and penetrating vision, wherein only the subsequent result can prove, in every case, how much was [p. 462] 'perceived-into', and how much actually lay in the object.

    Just as sensation, when given the priority, is not a mere reactive process of no further importance for the object, but is almost an action which seizes and shapes the object, so it is with intuition, which is by no means a mere perception, or awareness, but an active, creative process that builds into the object just as much as it takes out. But, because this process extracts the perception unconsciously, it also produces an unconscious effect in the object. The primary function of intuition is to transmit mere images, or perceptions of relations and conditions, which could be gained by the other functions, either not at all, or only by very roundabout ways. Such images have the value of definite discernments, and have a decisive bearing upon action, whenever intuition is given the chief weight; in which case, psychic adaptation is based almost exclusively upon intuition. Thinking, feeling, and sensation are relatively repressed; of these, sensation is the one principally affected, because, as the conscious function of sense, it offers the greatest obstacle to intuition. Sensation disturbs intuition's clear, unbiased, naive awareness with its importunate sensuous stimuli; for these direct the glance upon the physical superficies, hence upon the very things round and beyond which intuition tries to peer. But since intuition, in the extraverted attitude, has a prevailingly objective orientation, it actually comes very near to sensation; indeed, the expectant attitude towards outer objects may, with almost equal probability, avail itself of sensation. Hence, for intuition really to become paramount, sensation must to a large extent be suppressed. I am now speaking of sensation as the simple and direct sense-reaction, an almost definite physiological and psychic datum. This must be expressly established beforehand, because, if I ask the intuitive how he is [p. 463] orientated, he will speak of things which are quite indistinguishable from sense-perceptions. Frequently he will even make use of the term 'sensation'. He actually has sensations, but he is not guided by them per se, merely using them as directing-points for his distant vision. They are selected by unconscious expectation. Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the intuitive's unconscious attitude. In this way it may eventually attain the leading position, appearing to the intuitive's consciousness indistinguishable from a pure sensation. But actually it is not so.

    Just as extraverted sensation strives to reach the highest pitch of actuality, because only thus can the appearance of a complete life be created, so intuition tries to encompass the greatest possibilities, since only through the awareness of possibilities is intuition fully satisfied. Intuition seeks to discover possibilities in the objective situation; hence as a mere tributary function (viz. when not in the position of priority) it is also the instrument which, in the presence of a hopelessly blocked situation, works automatically towards the issue, which no other function could discover. Where intuition has the priority, every ordinary situation in life seems like a closed room, which intuition has to open. It is constantly seeking outlets and fresh possibilities in external life. In a very short time every actual situation becomes a prison to the intuitive; it burdens him like a chain, prompting a compelling need for solution. At times objects would seem to have an almost exaggerated value, should they chance to represent the idea of a severance or release that might lead to the discovery of a new possibility. Yet no sooner have they performed their office, serving intuition as a ladder or a bridge, than they [p. 464] appear to have no further value, and are discarded as mere burdensome appendages. A fact is acknowledged only in so far as it opens up fresh possibilities of advancing beyond it and of releasing the individual from its operation. Emerging possibilities are compelling motives from which intuition cannot escape and to which all else must be sacrificed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung - Psychological types
    Intuition, in the introverted attitude, is directed upon the inner object, a term we might justly apply to the elements of the unconscious. For the relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, although theirs is a psychological and not a physical reality. Inner objects appear to the intuitive perception as subjective images of things, which, though not met with in external experience, really determine the contents of the unconscious, i.e. the collective unconscious, in the last resort. Naturally, in their per se character, these contents are, not accessible to experience, a quality which they have in common with the outer object. For just as outer objects correspond only relatively with our perceptions of them, so the phenomenal forms of the inner object are also relative; products of their (to us) inaccessible essence and of the peculiar nature of the intuitive function. Like sensation, intuition also has its subjective factor, which is suppressed to the farthest limit in the extraverted intuition, but which becomes the decisive factor in the intuition of the introvert. Although this intuition may receive its impetus from outer objects, it is never arrested by the external possibilities, but stays with that factor which the outer object releases within.

    Whereas introverted sensation is mainly confined to the perception of particular innervation phenomena by way of the unconscious, and does not go beyond them, intuition represses this side of the subjective factor and perceives the image which has really occasioned the innervation. Supposing, for instance, a man is overtaken by a psychogenic attack of giddiness. Sensation is arrested by the peculiar character of this innervation disturbance, perceiving all its qualities, its intensity, its transient course, the nature of its origin and disappearance [p. 506] in their every detail, without raising the smallest inquiry concerning the nature of the thing which produced the disturbance, or advancing anything as to its content. Intuition, on the other hand, receives from the sensation only the impetus to immediate activity; it peers behind the scenes, quickly perceiving the inner image that gave rise to the specific phenomenon, i.e. the attack of vertigo, in the present case. It sees the image of a tottering man pierced through the heart by an arrow. This image fascinates the intuitive activity; it is arrested by it, and seeks to explore every detail of it. It holds fast to the vision, observing with the liveliest interest how the picture changes, unfolds further, and finally fades. In this way introverted intuition perceives all the background processes of consciousness with almost the same distinctness as extraverted sensation senses outer objects. For intuition, therefore, the unconscious images attain to the dignity of things or objects. But, because intuition excludes the co-operation of sensation, it obtains either no knowledge at all or at the best a very inadequate awareness of the innervation-disturbances or of the physical effects produced by the unconscious images. Accordingly, the images appear as though detached from the subject, as though existing in themselves without relation to the person.

    Consequently, in the above-mentioned example, the introverted intuitive, when affected by the giddiness, would not imagine that the perceived image might also in some way refer to himself. Naturally, to one who is rationally orientated, such a thing seems almost unthinkable, but it is none the less a fact, and I have often experienced it in my dealings with this type.

    The remarkable indifference of the extraverted intuitive in respect to outer objects is shared by the introverted intuitive in relation to the inner objects. Just as the extraverted intuitive is continually scenting out new [p. 507] possibilities, which he pursues with an equal unconcern both for his own welfare and for that of others, pressing on quite heedless of human considerations, tearing down what has only just been established in his everlasting search for change, so the introverted intuitive moves from image to image, chasing after every possibility in the teeming womb of the unconscious, without establishing any connection between the phenomenon and himself. Just as the world can never become a moral problem for the man who merely senses it, so the world of images is never a moral problem to the intuitive. To the one just as much as to the other, it is an aesthetic problem, a question of perception, a 'sensation'. In this way, the consciousness of his own bodily existence fades from the introverted intuitive's view, as does its effect upon others. The extraverted standpoint would say of him: 'Reality has no existence for him; he gives himself up to fruitless fantasies'. A perception of the unconscious images, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But, since these images represent possible ways of viewing life, which in given circumstances have the power to provide a new energic potential, this function, which to the outer world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel.

    Introverted intuition apprehends the images which arise from the a priori, i.e. the inherited foundations of the unconscious mind. These archetypes, whose innermost nature is inaccessible to experience, represent the precipitate of psychic functioning of the whole ancestral line, i.e. the heaped-up, or pooled, experiences of organic existence in general, a million times repeated, and condensed into types. Hence, in these archetypes all experiences are [p. 508] represented which since primeval time have happened on this planet. Their archetypal distinctness is the more marked, the more frequently and intensely they have been experienced. The archetype would be -- to borrow from Kant -- the noumenon of the image which intuition perceives and, in perceiving, creates.

    Since the unconscious is not just something that lies there, like a psychic caput mortuum, but is something that coexists and experiences inner transformations which are inherently related to general events, introverted intuition, through its perception of inner processes, gives certain data which may possess supreme importance for the comprehension of general occurrences: it can even foresee new possibilities in more or less clear outline, as well as the event which later actually transpires. Its prophetic prevision is to be explained from its relation to the archetypes which represent the law-determined course of all experienceable things.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung


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