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Thread: ST vs NF

  1. #1
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default ST vs NF

    In many of these typing games where people assign labels to different celebrities, I have noticed several occasions where someone will suggest NF for a character/celebrity who seems blatantly ST to me. I am now curious about how this could happen. STs and NFs are quite profoundly different. What is it they share in common?

    My first guesses are a certain kind of flexibility towards their environment. Although I keep hearing that in terms of the chameleon effect of Ne as well. What do y'all think about this phenomenon? What traits do they share?

    One of the more interesting crossovers is the INFJ vs. the ESTP. It is true they share all the same functions. I see people typing someone as INFJ more than once who seems strikingly ESTP to me. This might also result from a lack of equal familiarity between STs and NFs?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Personally, I wouldn't say that they had anything in common. That functional order theory is shaky enough that I would doubt it. But if you're interested, I'll reiterate another idea for those weird NFJ's who relate to STP's, even thought it makes no sense to me, because I don't feel flexible towards my environment at all, and I don't think I relate to them.

    1: INFJ, ENFJ, ISTP, ESTP.

    2: INTJ, ENTJ, ISFP, ESFP.

    3: ISFJ, ESFJ, INTP, ENTP.

    4: ISTJ, ESTJ, INFP, ENFP.

  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I could imagine people mixing-up an ENFP and an ESTP perhaps, but total opposites seem hard to believe.
    They should have nothing in common.

    Are we talking about actors? That could result in the confusion of a character and the real person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post

    One of the more interesting crossovers is the INFJ vs. the ESTP. It is true they share all the same functions. I see people typing someone as INFJ more than once who seems strikingly ESTP to me. This might also result from a lack of equal familiarity between STs and NFs?
    I'm one of those weird INFJ's who relate well with STP's. Haha.

    People either think my ESTP mother & I are exactly alike or polar opposites. We get along extremely well or absolutely terribly. From my point of view, I think we are very different but I can see the moments where we see things from a similar point of view. There's a familiarity between us, though - kind of that we're on somewhat of a similar level despite our differences. The two of us seem to interpret things in a much more similar way than my INFP brother. In fact, I understand my mother way more than I understand him & we share the NF. We also feed off of one another & bring out either each other's best qualities or worst qualities. Another odd occurance is that when we are fighting, she seems to turn into a really bad version of me and I'll turn into a really bad version of her. Know what else I find interesting about our dynamic? When she gives advice, it's advice that I may not have thought up myself but it makes complete sense to me. When my brother gives me advice, I tend to end up more confused.

    I find I have the same odd familiarity with my ISTP boyfriend & time will tell how well our interactions play out. We're very different, but we seem to have this comfortable "I get you, even though I may have done it differently" kind of vibe. We also seem to have that "bring out other sides of one another" thing that my mother & I have going.

    One thing I noticed about ESTP & ISTP in relation to myself is that we all seem to go about our day to day stuff in a similar way. We tend to plan ahead in accordance of what we want to accomplish (instead of planning simply to plan - I like to call it flexible planning!) and we're goal oriented. Also - and this may be the Ni peeking it's head in somewhere - we tend to talk about what we're going to do next a lot. When I get off the phone with either my mother or my boyfriend, it usually ends with both of us giving a synapsis of what we're thinking of doing the next day and when to expect to a phone call. ESTP's and ISTP may be very in the moment with their activities & possibly attention span (my mother especially), but they tend to plan a lot more than other SP's. The ESTP & ISTP I know are also as loyal as I am and that is another way we see eye to eye.

    I do to SFP's or SJ's in this way, though. It seems to be solely an STP sort of thing.

    Anyway, I tend to favor the theory that we use our top four functions in a positive way and our shadow functions are the ones that are a bit more foreign to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    In many of these typing games where people assign labels to different celebrities, I have noticed several occasions where someone will suggest NF for a character/celebrity who seems blatantly ST to me. I am now curious about how this could happen. STs and NFs are quite profoundly different. What is it they share in common?

    My first guesses are a certain kind of flexibility towards their environment. Although I keep hearing that in terms of the chameleon effect of Ne as well. What do y'all think about this phenomenon? What traits do they share?

    One of the more interesting crossovers is the INFJ vs. the ESTP. It is true they share all the same functions. I see people typing someone as INFJ more than once who seems strikingly ESTP to me. This might also result from a lack of equal familiarity between STs and NFs?
    In the celebrity typing on these forums, there do seem to be a lot of people typed as NF.

    For celebrities, it seems like a possible effect of people marketing themselves. For a lot of pop culture, it seems that the way to market a person making the culture, or market a song, is to produce emotional connections, and show meaning behind the work. Since these sorts of things tend to be associated with NF qualities in MBTI, the marketing will tend to push apparent type towards NF of all types of celebrities. If it is also true the STP's make the best marketers on average, than they may be getting more mistypes due to the ability to more easily play an image.

    In other situations, I can't really say, since I don't have much experience with the two types, and ST+NF covers half the types, so it's hard to really say why they would be different.

  6. #6
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    With the Enneagram, it's a real pain to try and guess a politician's type, because they always aim for a few public personas. Basically Ones or Threes, with the occasional Eight.
    It says nothing of what their type might really be.

    I imagine that a similar problem could be coming-up in this situation.
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    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Seeing as how I went from typing Meryl Streep as an INTP to considering INFJ to buying FineLine's arguments for ESTP, I suppose I should speak up.

    Arguably the most important factor skewing my typings is inexperience. For instance, I don't know any female NTPs and I am only superficially acquainted with female ESTPs and female INFs. I definitely need to get out and type more people. (Incidentally, my realization of this is the reason why I have more or less put celebrity typing on hold.)

    That said, I still believe Marilyn Manson to be an INFJ and not an STP.

    I've brainstormed similarities between NFs and STs but apart from armchair theorizing that I don't necessarily believe in, I can't come up with anything general. The disputes I recall all had different reasons (on top of typing inexperience).

  8. #8
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I dated two ESTP mega conmen. They can really pour on the meaning, emotion, and drama. However, they couldn't predict my escape route.

    The difference between an off-centered STP and NF is related to the pragmatics of their beliefs. An NF may believe something far out, but will believe it for its own sake, not for the money or external benefits they receive from it. An STP will use meaning for temporal gain. They will adjust their beliefs more readily in the moment. Crowd control requires this sort of pragmatic approach to "meaning". Anyone with a clue about the concrete world can see what an effortless path this is to controlling people. The STP projection of meaning to influence people gives more weight to the sensation of the belief than to the underlying abstract system. This is obvious in the image projection of many celebrities. The difference is clear as crystal when put to the test.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #9
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The difference between an off-centered STP and NF is related to the pragmatics of their beliefs. An NF may believe something far out, but will believe it for its own sake, not for the money or external benefits they receive from it. An STP will use meaning for temporal gain. They will adjust their beliefs more readily in the moment.
    Not to derail your thread from the general case to the specific but I really think the bolded part is true with MM.

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