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  1. #21
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    I think I'm better at using Te than Fe (which is really alien to me).
    I just thought that if everything else is uncertain, it might provide a little more clarity.
    Heh, I speak Fe at a second language, at best. I do agree it's good to look at the other functions and try pattern matching and see what fits.

  2. #22
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofmarhof View Post

    I feel like we should just settle the "Ti sucks" and "Fi sucks" threads with "Ti and Fi are the same damn thing."
    I definitely think we're all onto something when we start to notice the similiarities between Ti and Fi. The more we introvert Ji, the more similar its two forms become.

    Ti causes one to have a value system based on logical consistency and impersonal "truth." Fi causes one to have a value system based on empathy and personal "ethics."

    The more introverted and detached from reality Ti is, the more it irrationally attaches to this notion of "truth." Strong Ti-ers have an obsession with being logically consistent almost to the point that it's irrational. They don't realize that truth should not and cannot be procured under every circumstance. But truth is the only thing that "feels" right to them, and they won't accept an idea until it is true beyond a reasonable doubt. Ask them why they subscribe so strongly to this belief system, and they'll answer with something along the lines of "Because truth is the only thing that feels right." At the core, truth defines their own personal system of ethics, and they essentially cannot offer a better reason than "It feels right." (Although I doubt a strong Ti-er would ever say that something "feels" right; they'd say it "is" right, but ultimately, the only reason they really value their internal belief system is because to them, it feels right). Thus, a stronger Ti-er may start to sound like an Fi-er when he is backing up his value system.

    On the flipside, Fi can become just as equally detached form reality to the point that a strong Fi-er might believe that their own personal system of ethics is objectively true. These types of Fi-ers believe that ethics is impersonally rational, not just something based off of internal empathy. They don't just subscribe to their values on empathy because it feels right for them on an emotional level; they subscribe to empathy because they believe it is logically harmonious as well. Thus, a strong Fi-er may start to sound like a Ti-er when he is backing up his value system.

    Both introverted judging functions can be as equally headstrong and unmoving. Both value "truth" but just define it in different ways. Both can become so detached from reality that the only real support for the Ji becomes the other form of Ji. Ti and Fi aren't enemies; they are twins from different cultures who connect biologically but diverge intellectually. But the biological connection still keeps them tied to each other, no matter how reluctant they are to get along.

  3. #23
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think Fi also gets associated with 'searching for your identity and finding yourself." Usually if people type me and pick something other than INTP, it is INFP... because I focus a lot of personal growth and insight and introspection on the personal level, as well as examining and trying to grasp/actualize others.

    But basically I did not really try to find my "personal values" until my 30's. Until then I was driven by what I could observe and theorize as true. Whether something was true or not is what mattered to me, even if it wasn't something I personally wanted to believe or accept; I always submitted to what my rationality told me was most likely to be true. I would also get angry inside and even disdainful of people who seemed to prioritize what they wanted, what they felt, and what they valued at other people's expense or without consideration of rationality and fairness to other people.

    It wasn't until mid-life where I started trying to figure out how I felt about things personally, and started to acknowledge that maybe my personal feelings and values should play a role in my commitments, life direction and choices, etc. That life was more fulfilling if I actually accepted I had subjective feelings and views on things and needed to live in more accordance with them rather than just what I could best rationalize about the world external to me.
    I think my Fi strength is borne of stress throughout life. It was never really consciously about "finding your identity" (In fact, my parents, with their tertiary Fi were always pushing that stuff on me, and it went right over my head), or at least not for its own sake, but more in reaction to people. It's mostly negative, but it does provide some peace at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Space Oddity, when you say these INFPs were "melancholy," what exactly do you mean? I'm interested in knowing for my own purposes, because I think I am confusing the common meaning of melancholy with the four humors, black bile melancholy personality (which do overlap at points, but also have significant differences.) I'd just like to know what you meant in the context that you used the word.
    He probably means the "generic" sense of depressive. the Melancholic humor would more likely lie in the IST, INJ and SJ groups. Though Jung did say "introverted Felling types" were "largely females, whose temperament is likely melancholic". He was obviously wrong about it being mostly females, so he was off about it being a Melancholic temperament. The Melancholic Fi women he was seeing were most likely IxTJ's, manifesting a strong tertiary, especially because of the old roles of women, which presumed Feeling/emotionalism.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Space Oddity, when you say these INFPs were "melancholy," what exactly do you mean? I'm interested in knowing for my own purposes, because I think I am confusing the common meaning of melancholy with the four humors, black bile melancholy personality (which do overlap at points, but also have significant differences.) I'd just like to know what you meant in the context that you used the word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B
    He probably means the "generic" sense of depressive. the Melancholic humor would more likely lie in the IST, INJ and SJ groups. Though Jung did say "introverted Felling types" were "largely females, whose temperament is likely melancholic". He was obviously wrong about it being mostly females, so he was off about it being a Melancholic temperament. The Melancholic Fi women he was seeing were most likely IxTJ's, manifesting a strong tertiary, especially because of the old roles of women, which presumed Feeling/emotionalism.
    (Eric B, I'm a girl, by the way ) Actually, I really had the four temperaments in mind when I was using the word "melancholic". I do think the terms overlap at some points, because the latter is often a "by-product" of the former, but each of the temperaments can experience melancholy.

    Some definitions of melancholic (as in the four temperaments):

    Melancholic

    A person who is a thoughtful ponderer has a melancholic disposition. Often very kind and considerate, melancholics can be highly creative as in poetry and art - but also can become overly pre-occupied with the tragedy and cruelty in the world, thus becoming depressed. A melancholic is also often a perfectionist, being very particular about what they want and how they want it in some cases. This often results in being dissatisfied with one's own artistic or creative works and always pointing out to themselves what could and should be improved. They are often loners and most times choose to stay alone and reflect.
    Sensitive Intuitive Self-conscious Easily embarrassed Easily hurt Introspective Sentimental Moody Likes to be alone Empathetic Often artistic Often fussy and perfectionist Deep Prone to depression, avarice, and gluttony
    At least, this is how I understand the term - tell me if I'm old-school. And as such, I think it matches the INFP nature very well, and I have to say that almost all INFPs I know are melancholic (and I know quite a lot). A few ISJs and INJs I know are melancholic as well, but I don't think there's any pattern that would rule out melancholic for an INFP. What temperament would you subscribe them, Eric B? I can't really imagine a better match for them, to be honest. Some of the INFP males I've met are phlegmatic, but the females are almost always melancholic.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  5. #25
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    OK, sorry about that.
    Well, "Melancholic" as a humour was originally defined by long response delay and long response sustain. Those would translate into introversion and directive (IST/INJ) or cooperative and structure focused (SJ). INFP is introverted and cooperative, but it"s also informative and motive focused. (Which are short sustain!) That would translate to Phlegmatic or even a fifth temperament, Supine.
    INFP's usually do come out heavy in those two when they take the humour tests. They also come out with Melancholy as well, but in the full five temperament theory, there is a third possible temperment blending, and that's where that likely lies. Little Linguist is an example of this, and it has even made her think that she's some IJ type at times.

    The purest Melancholy is an ISTJ, and the tertiary Fi where they get that "artisticness" and those other emotion related descriptions from. Particularly with the tertiary carrying the ego's "child" complex. It's their "childlike relief"
    Last edited by Eric B; 01-11-2010 at 08:17 PM.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, "Melancholic" as a humour was originally defined by long response delay and long response sustain. Those would translate into iintroversion and directive (IST/INJ) or cooperative and structure focused (SJ). INFP is introverted and cooperative, but it"s also informative and motive focused. (Which are short sustain!) That would translate to Phlegmatic or even a fifth temperament, Supine.
    INFP's usually do come out hevy in those two when thy take the humour ests. They aso come ut wth Melancholy a well, but in he full five temperament theory, there is a third possible temperment blending, and that's where that likely lies. Little Linguist is an example of this, and it as even made her think that she's some IJ type at ties.

    The urest Melancholy is an STJ, and the tertiary Fi where they get that "artisticness" from.
    Ok, I don't know the four temperaments theory into such depth, I only know the basics and I've always came out as a melancholic in the tests / reading the descriptions. Little Linguist strikes me as a choleric from her videos, actually... *ponders* I've briefly looked up the Five Temperaments theory and I agree that some INFPs might be Phlegmatic or even Supine (even though Supine sounds more ISFJ to me...), but I maintain that Melancholic definitely fits those I mentioned in my post, if not every INFP I deemed as Melancholic. It might be of interest that my dad actually does have a strong ISTJ streak and one of the friends of mine as well, but their core is definitely Fi+Ne.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  7. #27
    Member reality.ensues's Avatar
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    I'm borderline too. The thing that decided it for me was that I have weak Fe and strong Te. I think that when you can't decide between two functions, you should look at the extroverted/introverted versions of those functions, whichever applies.
    Isn't life under the sun just a crazy, crazy, crazy dream? Isn't life just a mirage of the world before the world? Why am I here and not over there? When did time begin? Where does space end? Where do you and I begin?
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  8. #28
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I have pretty high 'F', but my 'T' is pretty strong because of my education and upbringing. Are they balanced? I dunno. Depends on the context I suppose. I consider them both important, but my preference is to lead with how a thing makes me feel, then take it apart with logic in order to balance it.
    I don't consider how I feel about something the final word, by any means. If I 'smell smoke', then something,somewhere is burning, but I can't tell right off the bat what that thing is without further investigation. that's where logic/thinking comes in.
    Honestly? I don't differentiate between these processes in my mind. They are the same flow of information, and are seemless. For example, I listen to music as a seemless whole, but that doesn't mean that can't understand it on a logical level (e.g: understand the harmony) as well as an emotional level.

  9. #29
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space_Oddity View Post
    Ok, I don't know the four temperaments theory into such depth, I only know the basics and I've always came out as a melancholic in the tests / reading the descriptions.
    but I maintain that Melancholic definitely fits those I mentioned in my post, if not every INFP I deemed as Melancholic. It might be of interest that my dad actually does have a strong ISTJ streak and one of the friends of mine as well, but their core is definitely Fi+Ne.
    A lof of those "four humors" tests are just picking traits out of lists of descriptions for each temperament. The "free" five temperament test we've discussed is like that as well.
    But while I'll use those as evidence of a correlation between the two theories, those are really not going to be very accurate all of the time. People can manifest any sort of "traits" for different reasons. Hence, an INFP will check off those "Fi-ish" traits under the Melancholy description, while the Phlegmatic descriptions will tend to be more about sluggishness, and they might not identify with those as much (especially if they're really a Supine and the test doesn't include it!) Some of those traits lists and descriptions for some reason gloss over the Melancholy's clear Thinking preference, and instead focus on the lesser Feeling traits. So that could be another reason for the discrepancy.
    (The full five temperament theory is directly based on the FIRO-B theory, and engineered in a way to pick out the underlying needs of temperament).
    Little Linguist strikes me as a choleric from her videos, actually... *ponders*
    She seems too "light and airy" to me. Cholerics are much more serious. She's clearly Sanguine; though an abstract one (N, where the purest Sanguines are sensory (ESFP)). Of course, Keirsey said all NF's were "choleric" because of the emotiveness, but the true essence of Choleric is expressiveness and directiveness (or pragmatic and structure focused). If she's Melancholy in the third area (deep personal), that will give her a measure of directiveness that will make her less "people-focused" than other Sanguines.
    I've briefly looked up the Five Temperaments theory and I agree that some INFPs might be Phlegmatic or even Supine (even though Supine sounds more ISFJ to me...),
    I've thought about that too, but I think a pure Supine's core is Fi. They reach out and serve others (which sounds Fe) for their own internal reason (to feel worthy). An ISFJ, is, however, part Supine, mixed with Melancholy.
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