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  1. #1
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Default e4, Fi, critique, and wrath

    i think avis clarified the "pretentious" thread by using the word presumptuous. which fits in all dominant situations where one function presumes to know the whole truth and ignore others. that makes itself resistant to feedback elsewhere.

    i find a different Fi response more interesting: wrath. with ixfps, particularly 4s and at times 9w8s, the response to critique is wrathful. it feels more vehement than anything else. it feels hateful.

    i find this interesting in light of the ongoing threads about Fi duality. good/evil, light/dark, love/hate. the romanticism of polar opposites and extremes. Fe may loathe itself, may detest itself, may disgust itself, but Fi can actually practice a form of self-hatred. maybe this is misleading. Fi dom e4s can practice self-hatred. perhaps Fe dom 4s can as well. i don't identify with Fe as much as i identify with Ni, so i can't hate myself in that regard. i can see myself in all those different ways, and imagine myself in ways that would generate hate, but they disappear, just turn to morbid exhaustion and depression. i can't imagine storing them, keeping them, as part of your being, your identification, your sense of self.

    but this brings me back to the main topic. the response of Fi e4 to critique. it is a threat to one's own self-identification. by changing your perspective, someone is trying to change your values. they are trying to draw you away from yourself. they are rejecting you. they are rejecting your truth, and your truth is you, and you are nothing without your truth. the idea that you don't have to be fully encompassed by one function, that your system isn't entirely based on Fi, but expands well beyond that, becomes a threatening thing.

    but the response feels like wrath. with Ts such things/conflicts feel like a coldness, a detachment, a competitiveness. the anger is just frustration. but with Fi it's wrath, it feels so hateful. maybe it's a self-preservational thing.

    my impression of most of the Fi people i know is very positive, but the experience of this is so strange to me. maybe it's Fe's interpretation, but my energy/anger immediately rise to meet it. i want to fucking destroy it, just like it wants to destroy me/the threat/attacker.

  2. #2
    Man for all seasons dynamiteninja's Avatar
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    Honestly as a e4 sp INFP I may not like criticism but I regularly ask for it and whilst I may not like it when it hurts me I usually appreciate it if I feel it to be accurate. Rarely, if ever, could my response be considered hateful.
    4w5 sp

  3. #3
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    It's not wrath, it's a mix of sadness becoz others somehow cannot see what we want to share so desperately without misinderpreting it and feeling wronged, because of the judgement that comes with the criticism.

    I give up. I swear, I give up. There is no explaining this apparently without it being misinterpreted. Or somehow put under a big microscope and analyzed and interpreted in ways it was never meant to be interpreted. Nor is there apparently the chance/interest for actually showing and teaching people how to view it properly. Or if they cannot view it, stop judging before they actually learn.

    Give me apathy on this issue. I'm done.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  4. #4
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Earlier in thread, there were several objections to the use of the word "pretentious" - here's my post, and I wasn't the first: Pretentious vs Presumptious

    When I was in my 20's being critiqued was harder for me to bear because it did tap into the place of my self-confidence and identity. Could hurt very much, had to learn to detach and be objective and not take this personally. Did I become vengeful and hurtful to others - no. But sometimes the anger and pain could dig deep into me.

    So, since many folks on here are in their 20's it doesn't surprise me at all to see a little righteous indignation expressed at a perceived attack from time to time.

    The wrath of Fi - watch out, lest it consume ye like a raging fire!

  5. #5
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It's not wrath, it's a mix of sadness becoz others somehow cannot see what we want to share so desperately without misinderpreting it and feeling wronged, because of the judgement that comes with the criticism.

    I give up. I swear, I give up. There is no explaining this apparently without it being misinterpreted. Or somehow put under a big microscope and analyzed and interpreted in ways it was never meant to be interpreted. Nor is there apparently the chance/interest for actually showing and teaching people how to view it properly. Or if they cannot view it, stop judging before they actually learn.

    Give me apathy on this issue. I'm done.
    we can see bits and pieces, but understanding it and organizing it in language is difficult. i am surprised that you read yourself into what i am trying to explore in this thread. you have maintained an optimistic and informative tone throughout all of the Fi threads. moreover, i have learned much from your posts.

    yet, at the same time, i do have a recurring experience with some Fi e4 infps that is uniquely frustrating. i am trying to understand this. i have no desire or intention to vilify. i want to understand, but i have a different way of understanding than you. it follows a different process, and requires different information to feel complete. my judgments do not take a similar form, so i have to translate the understandings presented to me into a form i can use, into a vision i can see, etc. i'll try to keep the thread as positive as possible, and if/when i see obvious things i have overlooked or misinterpreted, i will be more than happy to encompass them into my way of seeing. that is, in fact, what i want. and obviously i do need help with this, hence the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Earlier in thread, there were several objections to the use of the word "pretentious" - here's my post, and I wasn't the first: Pretentious vs Presumptious

    When I was in my 20's being critiqued was harder for me to bear because it did tap into the place of my self-confidence and identity. Could hurt very much, had to learn to detach and be objective and not take this personally. Did I become vengeful and hurtful to others - no. But sometimes the anger and pain could dig deep into me.

    So, since many folks on here are in their 20's it doesn't surprise me at all to see a little righteous indignation expressed at a perceived attack from time to time.

    The wrath of Fi - watch out, lest it consume ye like a raging fire!
    yes, the developmental process (read: age) is the unspoken factor that probably plays the biggest role in our type frustrations and stereotypes. we look at 20 year olds who are just becoming in touch with their tertiary function and their enneagram wing, who are in a period of extreme stress and who are mostly finishing/solidifying their cognitive processes and trying to balance the biggest fucking psychological construction/version of themselves they've ever dealt with1. while people all over the place have varying social investments in their well-being, and varying levels of support, deal with varying degrees of stress, have different stories, and achieve various levels of psychological health, age is a constant that DOES matter. this system makes most sense in/as a theory of psychological development.

    with that said, the stresses of each type of integration are different/unique. i do not remember personally seeing wrath from a 9w1 so far. my hypothesis is they turn it inward more, become more detached to get away from the conflict. 4w5 and 9w8 seem more outward directed.

    i think dynamiteninjas suggestion that instinctual subtypes play a significant role is very perceptive.

    i think sx/so, sx/sp, so/sx, so/sp, sp/sx, sp/so may all have a different kind of energetic response. as an sx/sp, i respond intensely and directly, but with a kind of threatened feeling undertone. this would only increase if it threatened my highest awareness and my strongest self-identification. the worst feeling in the world to me would be to feel that i, in fact, was not a perceptive person. my identity would crumble.

    1 my psych major enfp friend told me the frontal cortex does have an approximate kind of "finishing" moment at 20ish.

  6. #6
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think sx/so, sx/sp, so/sx, so/sp, sp/sx, sp/so may all have a different kind of energetic response. as an sx/sp, i respond intensely and directly, but with a kind of threatened feeling undertone. this would only increase if it threatened my highest awareness and my strongest self-identification. the worst feeling in the world to me would be to feel that i, in fact, was not a perceptive person. my identity would crumble.
    So, in your opinion, does this "wrath" apply to non-Fi 4s?

  7. #7
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Wrath? Not my first response to being critiqued.
    Attempts at bulldozing me over with your opinions of me, my actions, and my motivations, even as I tell you that your interpretation is not my own, or is incorrect as I understand it?=maybe, eventually, wrath.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  8. #8
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    So, in your opinion, does this "wrath" apply to non-Fi 4s?
    that's not what i was thinking, but it is certainly possible. i don't know any 4w5 infjs. i know far more 9s, probably another 5, and that's about it. my other impression was that enfj 4w3 or 4w5 (tho i've never seen that) would make some sense in this regard as well. the dominant F i think is important in the sense of self-identification and reacting to whatever object made you feel that way as if it was/were/is the feeling.

    tho i think Fi is more prone to it, especially 4w5. well, maybe not. Fe would be more circumstantial and based on the way that another type would reject them or see them or treat them based purely on the context of the situation. i think, perhaps, Fe doesn't view TRUTH in the same was as Fi does, as an enduring constructed stable thing, so it would respond negatively or in a hostile way that would be apart from the truth question. yet, it would still be inflamed and wrathful based on its feeling of being wronged, violated, treated unfairly, threatened identity, etc. but, as i said, i do not have a clear imagining of 4w5 infj. the closest thing i can imagine is conor oberst of bright eyes. which is not exactly a great sample size.

    i think sx/sp might be particularly strong in this kind of responsiveness as well.

    what are your thoughts on the matter?

  9. #9
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It's not wrath, it's a mix of sadness becoz others somehow cannot see what we want to share so desperately without misinderpreting it and feeling wronged, because of the judgement that comes with the criticism.

    I give up. I swear, I give up. There is no explaining this apparently without it being misinterpreted. Or somehow put under a big microscope and analyzed and interpreted in ways it was never meant to be interpreted. Nor is there apparently the chance/interest for actually showing and teaching people how to view it properly. Or if they cannot view it, stop judging before they actually learn.

    Give me apathy on this issue. I'm done.
    I'm usually only angry about criticism if I feel entirely misunderstood, and I feel that people are jumping to conclusions on my motivations. As for Fi e4s, we're supposed to be seeking unique identity and expression (true for me). To be generalized negatively and incorrectly is very annoying in light of that.

    There's also an issue of who criticism is coming from. Sometimes, it feels a person has no right to criticize you. If they come off as biased, arrogant in their accusations, hypocritical, and/or unreasonable to rebuttal of their criticism, then I cannot take them seriously. I feel that in order to offer constructive criticism, you must be able to offer feedback that is positive, even if it's just acknowledgment for potential. Otherwise, you're not on my side, and I am suspicious of you and cannot trust your perspective. This is a way to weed out possibly spiteful people, because if you took every negative comment to heart, you'd get depressed.

    And yes, I think many Fi e4s are very self-critical, and as the OP says, their feelings/expressions/etc are often felt to be a reflection of who they are. If a person identifies strongly with an MBTI type, then they may see that type as a reflection of their self, and will take it personally (considering it is a personality type). To ask someone to represent their type when criticizing it is asking them to take it personally. You cannot know what every person of your type feels or how they act, and you can only imagine to a point.

    To be misunderstood also means having to re-evaluate the internal perception of self and how that may need to be adjusted - that's tiring, and I don't want to do it unless you give me very good reason to think your perspective has truth and is coming from an honest and knowledgeable place.

    Because of so much self-examination, there is often an acute awareness of flaws - painfully so. Not to say we are not blind to flaws at times, but most of the time, when people point it out, you know already it to a degree. Instead of being helpful, they're just driving the knife in further. Constructive criticism has a compassionate angle, because it's trying to help you take the knife out without bleeding to death. Even if the criticism is off the mark, it helps you consider their viewpoint without becoming upset (you may still dismiss it internally later if you weigh it against other perceptions & decide theirs is wrong).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #10
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    that's not what i was thinking, but it is certainly possible. i don't know any 4w5 infjs.
    There are supposed to be quite a few 4w5 INFJs on this forum, unless you are only looking for real life examples. Also, I'm a 4 (sx/sp), but I'm unsure of my wing at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    what are your thoughts on the matter?
    I was thinking that these statements

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it is a threat to one's own self-identification. by changing your perspective, someone is trying to change your values. they are trying to draw you away from yourself. they are rejecting you. they are rejecting your truth, and your truth is you, and you are nothing without your truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the worst feeling in the world to me would be to feel that i, in fact, was not a perceptive person. my identity would crumble.
    especially the bolded, could particularly apply to INFJ 4. In the sense that what is being identified with is Ni -- their perspective, their truth; a critique of that would be a rejection of them. Ni is touted as viewing multiple perspectives and disregarding the idea of the ultimate truth, but paired with Fe (as I don't see any function working in isolation), once the INFJ 4 has sorted through all possible interpretations and found what they believe to be true (for them, at least), they are not apt to change it and any challenges to that perspective may be met with wrath, dismissal, frustration, etc.

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