Pretentious [add in any other negative adjective] Ti

[Qre:us]

eh?

For a J, the external function is the judging one.

For a P, the external function is the perceiving one.

So, for a P, the judgement is not their manifestation onto the real world. it's on the inside. What you see is their perceiving function...

What we perceive, whether its through an external or an internal function is still a perception. It floats in our mind. It's just simply perceived.
You won't know my perception until and unless I manifest it, and this is done through the judging functions, the mode of translation of the perception........and this is what the world gets to see. E.g., The Ji rationalizes the Pe, and we only are privy to the rationalizations, so judge the rationalizations on how pretentious it comes off as.

 

[Geoff]

What we perceive, whether its through an external or an internal function is still a perception. It floats in our mind.
You won't know my perception until and unless I manifest it, and this is done through the judging functions, the mode of translation of the perception........and this is what the world gets to see. E.g., The Ji rationalizes the Pe, and we only are privy to the rationalizations, so judge the rationalizations on how pretentious it comes off as.

We experience the world through our external function. Depending on J or P it is TF or SN.

The world gets to see that external function.

That's why there is such a difference, say, between an INTJ and an INTP. The J/P access completely changes what is the external function. In this case from Te to Ne. Note that in both cases this is NOT the dominant function - that remains on the inside.

 

[Qre:us]

We experience the world through our external function. Depending on J or P it is TF or SN.

The world gets to see that external function.

That's why there is such a difference, say, between an INTJ and an INTP. The J/P access completely changes what is the external function. In this case from Te to Ne. Note that in both cases this is NOT the dominant function - that remains on the inside.

You're getting hung up on external versus internal functions while I'm trying to explain the function of perception versus judgement.

You don't see my Ne, you see my Ne as it's translated through my Ti.

Just like with an INTJ, I don't JUST see his Ni, but his Ni as its translated through Te.

(It's not cuz Te is extraverted and Ni is not, as shown by the previous Ne/Ti example)

Perception is just that.......perception. It perceives, this it how it gathers info. It's just a gathering tool. It stops at gathering. The judging function tells us the decisions we make with what we've gathered. And, it's the decisions that's only privy to others, not what we gathered.

My Ne gathers a whole lot of shyte, but, you only see a bit of what my Ne gathered, that which Ti decided was the most relevant to manifest. The how and why and in which form it rationalizes the gathering. Ne is external because it gathers from the outside environment, Ni is internal because it gathers from the inside. Both still just gather.

 

[Geoff]

You're getting hung up on external versus internal functions while I'm trying to explain the function of perception versus judgement.

You don't see my Ne, you see my Ne as it's translated through my Ti.

Just like with an INTJ, I don't JUST see his Ni, but his Ni as its translated through is Te.

(It's not cuz Te is extraverted and Ni is not, as shown by the previous Ne/Ti example)

Perception is just that.......perception. It perceives, this it how it gathers info. It's just a gathering tool. It stops at gathering. The judging function tells us the decisions we make with what we've gathered. And, it's the decisions that's only privy to others, not what we gathered.

My Ne gathers a whole lot of shyte, but, you only see a bit of what my Ne gathered, that which Ti decided was the most relevant to manifest. The how and why and in which form it rationalizations the gathering.

I see what you are driving at, but here's something I am pondering...

Take an INTJ example.

Should not the external function, the Te, be experiencing the world, and feeding the internal intuition, Ni that does stuff with it. So that to an outsider the Te looks like the "gathererer"?

I am trying not to get too hung up on semantics, but trying to relate this to real INTJs etc I know!

 

[the state i am in]

the introverted function is what supplies our previous learning to our extroverted function. they both constitute experience.

or you get that crazy look of someone trying to know something in their mind that has no form or perceptual information (depending on Ji or Pi). an attempt to sort with no real parameters.

i don't think Fe thinks Ti is pretentious. it's paired with it. every Fe user understands Ti to some degree at least. inferior opposites will be more stressed by the other and find them more threatening, naturally. but, as an 2-3 Fe-Ti, i just see why Ti doms act like assholes at times. just as they recognize that i am more squishy than them and way more illogical/fanciful.

unbalanced dominant introvert functions just get to be out of touch, entitled, assume they're always right, bc they don't get any decent feedback or error-checking or actualization of their ideas. then it shows that they were fuzzzzzzy/grey.

 

[Thalassa]

BUT - if I were to take note of when Ti-users are pretentious, it is when they present their personal theories as truth, when they are only opinions or assertions. This can cause confusion when their works are accessed by others, because they are interpreted as facts instead of as opinions. Indeed, a Ti user can come across as possessing an intellectually superior quality and have a very closed mind to the thoughts and interpretations of others.

.

This is exactly it - they speak their logical theories and opinions as though they were facts, and if reminded that they are merely expressing opinions, the Ti user can attempt to hold sway by claiming that their opinion is logical. However, logical doesn't necessarily indicate correct or factual information.

I think, also, as someone who has tertiary Te, I can personally become quite frustrated with their theories if they don't work in real life. To my little ENFP mind, logic is only useful if it can be applied to real life. After a certain point, all else seems to melt into pretentious bunkum. I imagine that the term "Ivory Tower Syndrome" was initially inspired by folks with either dominant or auxilliary Ti.

 

[Geoff]

Apologies for the derail, but I'm still pondering Ti and how therefore it's seen as pretentious.

I have mostly(ha!) an open mind as to how the functions operate, but I'm thinking now of a type I know well : ISFJ - I've lived with and worked for and with a few over the years. i don't "see" their sensory side.. it's all Fe with them.

Anyway, there was this interesting quote about "Si" the perceiving function of an ISFJ, for ISFJ's, on typelogic :

Jung saw IS as something of an oxymoron: sensing, which is a perceiving function, focused inward and thus away from that which is perceived (the "object"). In this light, he described this sensing as something removed from reality, full of archetypes/mythical figures/hobgoblins; sensing of one's own set of forms

That is how it feels for me with ISXJs. I am told that their Si is a rich world, fed by their Se or Fe, but damn me I can't see it from the outside!

 

[Qre:us]

I see what you are driving at, but here's something I am pondering...

Take an INTJ example.

Should not the external function, the Te, be experiencing the world, and feeding the internal intuition, Ni that does stuff with it. So that to an outsider the Te looks like the "gathererer"?
I am trying not to get too hung up on semantics, but trying to relate this to real INTJs etc I know!

I think what you're seeing is J versus P difference....the J in the INTJ.

The orientation of J/P tells us how we prefer to manage the external world.

This is why you see the "force" of the Te that you do, and may think that it's 'gathering', but, it's not, it's still a decision-making tool. The gathering tool is still the perceiving functions.

Do we wanna manage the outer world by predominately letting our judging function do most of the grunt work, or do we wanna manage the outer world by letting our perceiving function do most of the grunt work?

The forcefulness of how we manage the outer world (judging versus perceiving) may make it seem like that function is taking on more types of abilities than they truly are. We're just seeing more amount of their ability, not more types of abilities in that function. This is why perceivers get to have an external perceiving function and judgers get to have an external judging function so it can manage the external world through the strength of these functions.......management can come in both forms: (1) gathering and gathering and gathering, and ok, NOW I'll make a decision, or, (2) make a decision, make another decision, okay, maybe slow down and gather for a bit.

 

[BlackCat]

I would like to point out that, you sometimes come across as one of the most pretenious posters on the board. Just letting you know.

I'm such a terrible person.

 

[The Outsider]

I find that in some cases certain Ti users may feel as if those who do not fit their inner logical framework, are by definition, flawed. Without considering, that people can indeed be quite different in their ways and dealings.

And attempts to understand may come off as them waiting for the other party to explain and excuse their behaviour.

This of course applies to 'unhealthy' people, loathe as I may that particular word and its overuse...

That was kind of a useless post.

 

[prplchknz]

I'm such a terrible person.

i didn't fucking say that.

 

[neptunesnet]

OHNOW.

 

[William K]

I find that in some cases certain Ti users may feel as if those who do not fit their inner logical framework, are by definition, flawed. Without considering, that people can indeed be quite different in their ways and dealings.

And attempts to understand may come off as them waiting for the other party to explain and excuse their behaviour.

This of course applies to 'unhealthy' people, loathe as I may that particular word and its overuse...

That was kind of a useless post.

Agreed, not the useless post part

I don't have much to add but I do have a question for Ti-users in general. Once your Ti has made a decision, what would it take for others (especially non-Ti folks) to make you realize that that decision/logic is wrong and change your mind?

 

[Qre:us]

Agreed, not the useless post part

I don't have much to add but I do have a question for Ti-users in general. Once your Ti has made a decision, what would it take for others (especially non-Ti folks) to make you realize that that decision/logic is wrong and change your mind?

Point out the contradiction/inconsistency in the logical process, and/or or challenge the premise in the first place by giving proof counter to it.

 

[simulatedworld]

Yep, pointing out mistakes in people's reasoning or phrasing just for the sake of internal correctness can get you in a lot of trouble in social situations.

Trust me.

 

[Mad Hatter]

If I may interject a hair-splitting question here I already wanted to ask in the Fi-thread:

Is "pretentious" really the right word, or shouldn't it rather be presumptuos?
My premise is that pretentiousness denotes a certain kind of (obnoxious) behaviour while presumption rather refers to a kind of judgment, i.e. to overestimate one's own capabilities, and which isn't necessarily outwardly directed (as is pretentiousness).

I'm not a native speaker of English, but I think there is a slight but important difference.

 

[ergophobe]

Thanks for starting this thread Q and thanks DonnaTesla for thinking of starting this thread as well.

I don't think a function in itself is presumptuous. users across functions are however often presumptuous. Similar to what Q said about Good Fi and Bad Fi, I related this like others in the Fi thread to the support function (Te for Fi doms/auxs and Fe for Ti doms/auxs).
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...rices/25747-pretentious-fi-28.html#post993896

When this support function is weak, it seems to reflect in a close-minded approach to a subject, whatever it may be, in a refusal to consider other explanations or views. For Fi doms/auxs, the judgment reached through internal values, if not accompanied by the detachment Te provides, reflects in decisions made purely on personal values that may or may not reflect broader principles then held on to stubbornly in the face of other Fi doms/auxs and others suggesting that the internal process may be better served by incorporating more ethical principles - universal ethical principles than just individual values.

For Ti doms/auxs with weak Fe, it manifests as a similarly close-minded approach to the subject. The Ti judgment is made through a personal, internalized process as well. Not involving emotions, it is however individual to the user as evident in Ti doms/auxs disagreeing on explanations themselves all made with a preference for logic. When accompanied by well-developed Fe, however, it could lead to the Ti dom/aux having good communication skills to explain this internal process and logic and to consider the alternatives provided by others. This leads to a better discussion and learning on whatever the subject may be. This weak Fe supported, presumptuous and equally stubborn stance is just as frustrating even though it may be presented under the guise of a "logical" explanation. No type has a monopoly over the use of logic so this comes off as patronizing and close-minded.

 

[Tiltyred]

Ok, tell me again who counts as a Ti user, please?

 

[teslashock]

Ok, tell me again who counts as a Ti user, please?

TPs and FJs

 

[Fecal McAngry]

We have a thread about how Fi can be perceived as pretentious. How about Ti?

How does it manifest itself as pretentious? Or any other negatives observed by the receipients of Ti?

I've known some extraordinarily pretentious, precious, bloviating ENTPs, but most INTPs seem anything but.

"Pretentious Ti"?

Naaaah.