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  1. #71
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Ti people can be so pretentious sometimes by acting like they totally have the monopoly on thought and that everyone else probably isn't that bright and probably sits in the forest singing to the woodland creatures or something!
    I have actually done that.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #72
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    Ti people can be so pretentious sometimes by acting like they totally have the monopoly on thought and that everyone else probably isn't that bright and probably sits in the forest singing to the woodland creatures or something!

    Why, singing to woodland creatures is a billion times more constructive than trying to control everything. Which is what logic-driven people often seem to do.

  3. #73
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This gets tricky.....

    My mother is INFP and I have this term that I see in her, the "moral rational". So, it truly depends on the nature of the subject. She has far greater chance of convincing me of her position even if it is "fuzzy logic" if the topic in question is a question of morality. It appeals to my Fe.

    There are vast subjects up for discouse that goes beyond logic, where the detached, clinical process of logic does not apply, and it is more of an argument of compassion/morality...in this, I can, and do, definitely sway.

    However, the presentation of it has to follow a somewhat step-by-step justification, "morally rational" in bent.......not just skipping to "well, cuz it's right". Rationalize, using morality, why it is right. Speak to the consequence to the character of my being, given what you propose.
    Ok, that sounds fair. Now, one (final?) question. How much do you relax this standard when on a discussion forum on the Internet like this one? The reason I ask is that if (as an INFP) I am to engage in a fruitful discussion with a Ti-dom/aux, I need to know what the baseline requirements are. Most of you guys can just argue for the sake of arguing, because that is one way of validating your logic ( And I have my suspicions that a couple of you even enjoy it ) Sadly, I don't work the same way and if I figure I can't possibly 'win', I'll just shrink back into my shell and refuse to play.

    Side note : Where are the rest of the Ti-users? I appreciate your answers Qre:us, but surely not everyone's Ti is the same way, is it?
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #74
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I'm confessing that I don't understand Ti, as well as I understand the other functions, so a really good definition or description of Ti would be good.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #75
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Ok, that sounds fair. Now, one (final?) question. How much do you relax this standard when on a discussion forum on the Internet like this one? The reason I ask is that if (as an INFP) I am to engage in a fruitful discussion with a Ti-dom/aux, I need to know what the baseline requirements are. Most of you guys can just argue for the sake of arguing, because that is one way of validating your logic ( And I have my suspicions that a couple of you even enjoy it ) Sadly, I don't work the same way and if I figure I can't possibly 'win', I'll just shrink back into my shell and refuse to play.

    Side note : Where are the rest of the Ti-users? I appreciate your answers Qre:us, but surely not everyone's Ti is the same way, is it?
    Sounds a lot like my infp friend. He backs down from arguments too quickly for my tastes. I will admit that I enjoy arguing though. There is just so much clarification, testing, and learning to be had from constructive argument. I don't really "relax" my standards. I have different standards based on whether the discussion is about individual viewpoints or about some objective "truth", though.

    Fiery, this has what I consider a very good function by function description of INTPs. The Ti description could help you. An INTP Profile
    Ne > Ti > Si >> Te > Se >> Fe > Fi > Ni
    5 so/sp
    Chaotic Neutral/Evil

  6. #76
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    Ti is pretentious because of the pretense of truth behind the decisions. Fi and Ti are both used to advocate gut feelings, but Ti attempts to justify them with logic. Ti rarely has incorrect logic, but fails to examine the assumptions on which the conclusions are based. An analogy may be that it fixes the foundation so it can build, but the foundation isn't always true, it just has to be somewhere or Ti quickly gets bogged down in endless calculations.

    Additionally, the scope of the logic Ti uses to justify an opinion may not be as powerful as the xxTP seems to imply. Since their logic is often correct, the Ti user will often not change their beliefs until given a Ti reason, failing to correctly interpret the significance of other types' arguments because they are not structured in a way they can readily interpret.

    Forcing others to play to your strengths and debate your opinion with your syntax is a failing of any function. Ti and Fi in particular reaffirm their own validity to the user, closing their mind to other possibilities because they perceive themselves as logical (or whatever Fi's version of self-affirmation is....just "right"?).

    In the case of Ti, the "problem" is often that the user will try to draw incredibly precise conclusions from a set of assumptions that are not nearly as accurate as needed to make such conclusions. Ti tends to debate the finer points, whether or not it knows its in the ballpark, so to speak.


    Lastly, Ti is perceived as pretentious because you dont understand it.

  7. #77
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    Ti people can be so pretentious sometimes by acting like they totally have the monopoly on thought and that everyone else probably isn't that bright and probably sits in the forest singing to the woodland creatures or something!
    Acting ? For that kind of attitude you need real dedication
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #78
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTufnel View Post
    Ti is pretentious because of the pretense of truth behind the decisions. Fi and Ti are both used to advocate gut feelings, but Ti attempts to justify them with logic. Ti rarely has incorrect logic, but fails to examine the assumptions on which the conclusions are based. An analogy may be that it fixes the foundation so it can build, but the foundation isn't always true, it just has to be somewhere or Ti quickly gets bogged down in endless calculations.
    I had this conversation with an ENTP friend of mine, and it's interesting that you bring it up. I think if you take any Ti user back far enough by asking "why" repeatedly, you'll find that the most basic assumptions are always made arbitrarily. You can only take logic back so far in this crazy world we live in, and I think if you get too carried away, the line of distinction between Ti and Fi becomes blurred. We all have to assume certain premises to get anything done, otherwise we become frustrated and lost in infinite regress. I think the mistake Ti users make is to say that Fi is necessarily always illogical. If you can make the case that helping others or responding to emotional needs is an acceptable or good thing to do, than Fi's general value system checks out on logical consistency.

  9. #79
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    I had this conversation with an ENTP friend of mine, and it's interesting that you bring it up. I think if you take any Ti user back far enough by asking "why" repeatedly, you'll find that the most basic assumptions are always made arbitrarily.
    Seems like you havent met a Ne master yet
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #80
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    I had this conversation with an ENTP friend of mine, and it's interesting that you bring it up. I think if you take any Ti user back far enough by asking "why" repeatedly, you'll find that the most basic assumptions are always made arbitrarily.
    Of course, and that's not even inconsistent! I've actually talked about it with my students yesterday. The lesson was about axioms in probability theory.
    Student: "So, those axioms are chosen arbitrarily? If I choose other axioms, I can make everything true that I want to?"
    Me: "Sure. You can make a mathematics based on the axiom that all numbers are equal to each other. This could be consistent, but you can't do anything with that sort of mathematics. These axioms are chosen in the way that probability theory DOES say something about probabilities. They are chosen such that the probability of throwing a six with a fair die is one out of six - such that it gives the same results as our intuitive understanding"
    (intuitive not in the N meaning of the word, of course)
    Me, thinking: "Ti makes consistent theories, but you need Te too to make useful ones!"

    Another way of pretentious Ti (or, more general, T vs F)
    - seeing "subjective" as an insult.
    - in the same vein: if someone else chooses subjectively where you wouldn't(*), you're superior to them, of course... even if it doesn't matter that much.
    (*) There are problems that can be solved either way - the fact that I'd rather use logic on them makes me a T. It doesn't make me better.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

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