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  1. #61
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Point out the contradiction/inconsistency in the logical process, and/or or challenge the premise in the first place by giving proof counter to it.
    Ok, perhaps I need to rephrase the question

    Is there anything that doesn't involve 100% correctly proven logic/T that can change your mind? Can an Fi-user such as an INFP convince you using fuzzy Fi-statements? Or failing that, what will it take to convince you that "Ok, the other person might not think like I do and I don't agree with him 100%, but his way of thinking may also be valid"
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

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  2. #62
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Ok, perhaps I need to rephrase the question

    Is there anything that doesn't involve 100% correctly proven logic/T that can change your mind? Can an Fi-user such as an INFP convince you using fuzzy Fi-statements? Or failing that, what will it take to convince you that "Ok, the other person might not think like I do and I don't agree with him 100%, but his way of thinking may also be valid"
    This gets tricky.....

    My mother is INFP and I have this term that I see in her, the "moral rational". So, it truly depends on the nature of the subject. She has far greater chance of convincing me of her position even if it is "fuzzy logic" if the topic in question is a question of morality. It appeals to my Fe.

    There are vast subjects up for discouse that goes beyond logic, where the detached, clinical process of logic does not apply, and it is more of an argument of compassion/morality...in this, I can, and do, definitely sway.

    However, the presentation of it has to follow a somewhat step-by-step justification, "morally rational" in bent.......not just skipping to "well, cuz it's right". Rationalize, using morality, why it is right. Speak to the consequence to the character of my being, given what you propose.

  3. #63
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    I've known some extraordinarily pretentious, precious, bloviating ENTPs, but most INTPs seem anything but.
    So... pretentious Ne, maybe ? How about ENFPs then?
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  4. #64
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Ti is like that sharp knife that cuts through bullshit, and makes everything clear.

  5. #65
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    This gets tricky.....

    My mother is INFP and I have this term that I see in her, the "moral rational". So, it truly depends on the nature of the subject. She has far greater chance of convincing me of her position even if it is "fuzzy logic" if the topic in question is a question of morality. It appeals to my Fe.

    There are vast subjects up for discouse that goes beyond logic, where the detached, clinical process of logic does not apply, and it is more of an argument of compassion/morality...in this, I can, and do, definitely sway.

    However, the presentation of it has to follow a somewhat step-by-step justification, "morally rational" in bent.......not just skipping to "well, cuz it's right". Rationalize, using morality, why it is right. Speak to the consequence to the character of my being, given what you propose.
    Fi (or Ti for that matter) still has to find a way to show what it sees. this is Ne. paint me a picture, it doesn't have to follow a formal organization, let me rebuild bits and pieces of that (and fill in the gaps along the way). but if your VISION is compelling, if i feel as if you are perceptive and have a complex way of seeing the situation that has an internal coherency, logic, organization, consistency, etc, then i will be like, yes! i see what you mean! and at that point, i can ask questions to get closer and closer, clarify whatever is unclear.

    but if it's just this, see, your wrong (sic), then i'm like, seriously? fucking pull it together, why am i interested in what you are saying? why does it contribute anything to my understanding? why do i give empty words the benefit of the doubt. why does your poorly formed product stand up to mine and nullify it (it doesn't). communication is the same as art. if you put out a shitty product that is poorly articulated, why would i listen to your songs? what do they contribute? what value do they have? how testable is your hypothesis? what kind of experience does it elicit from me when it is made up of nothing, has no landmarks, has nothing to explore or consider or PERCEIVE. it doesn't get my attention, and it doesn't do anything with my awareness once it has it in its grasp.

    also, if you never do learn to contribute these things, if you never learn to communicate, if you end up being a single-function kamikaze, then something's failed, some part of the process has failed. wasted potential.

    this happens all over the place. and sometimes their stories intrigue us and are tragic and beautiful and sometimes they're documented. they grab our attention. they're beautiful bc we see the whole story and they make sense to us, and they cannot solve a very difficult problem that we can recognize and also find threatening. they teach us what we need to figure out, not provide an example of how we too should go up in smoke.

  6. #66
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    If I may interject a hair-splitting question here I already wanted to ask in the Fi-thread:

    Is "pretentious" really the right word, or shouldn't it rather be presumptuos?
    My premise is that pretentiousness denotes a certain kind of (obnoxious) behaviour while presumption rather refers to a kind of judgment, i.e. to overestimate one's own capabilities, and which isn't necessarily outwardly directed (as is pretentiousness).

    I'm not a native speaker of English, but I think there is a slight but important difference.
    how about, it is presumptuous to think that one function contains or has access to the whole truth. so those that get super jacked up on one function and never allow for any feedback, who turn there one function awareness into an absolutist stance, are not only presumptuous but asinine.

    one function may contain your highest learned or instinctual awareness, but it is completely and utterly dependent upon the other functions to develop that, refine that, revise that, re-sketch, etc. they provide parameters, boundaries, and tensions that focus said function, that hold it into place, adjusting it to make sure it is perfectly in tune.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    So... pretentious Ne, maybe ? How about ENFPs then?
    Usually, no...something about Ne and Ti in that order that leads to some pretty boorish behavior among some ENTPs at some times. It's not Ne per se...

  8. #68
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Usually, no...something about Ne and Ti in that order that leads to some pretty boorish behavior among some ENTPs at some times. It's not Ne per se...
    It's Fe misusing its awareness of how to emotionally affect people misguided by Ne's incessant curiosity about what will happen when we push the next button.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #69
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    How pretentious.
    The only sin you can commit in Oz is to be pretentious. And I love pretending.

  10. #70
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    I actually see pretentious more in the EP types as opposed to the IP types. It appears it is when an EP gets out of Ti and Fi and tries to teach/convince/explain their point of view. When an IP type gets more info they tend to first get back in and analyze where an EP type tends to get stuck in Extraverted mode.

    I know I will get slammed, but its just something I noticed recently.
    Im out, its been fun

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