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  1. #41
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    eh?

    For a J, the external function is the judging one.

    For a P, the external function is the perceiving one.

    So, for a P, the judgement is not their manifestation onto the real world. it's on the inside. What you see is their perceiving function...
    What we perceive, whether its through an external or an internal function is still a perception. It floats in our mind. It's just simply perceived.
    You won't know my perception until and unless I manifest it, and this is done through the judging functions, the mode of translation of the perception........and this is what the world gets to see. E.g., The Ji rationalizes the Pe, and we only are privy to the rationalizations, so judge the rationalizations on how pretentious it comes off as.

  2. #42
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What we perceive, whether its through an external or an internal function is still a perception. It floats in our mind.
    You won't know my perception until and unless I manifest it, and this is done through the judging functions, the mode of translation of the perception........and this is what the world gets to see. E.g., The Ji rationalizes the Pe, and we only are privy to the rationalizations, so judge the rationalizations on how pretentious it comes off as.

    We experience the world through our external function. Depending on J or P it is TF or SN.

    The world gets to see that external function.

    That's why there is such a difference, say, between an INTJ and an INTP. The J/P access completely changes what is the external function. In this case from Te to Ne. Note that in both cases this is NOT the dominant function - that remains on the inside.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    We experience the world through our external function. Depending on J or P it is TF or SN.

    The world gets to see that external function.

    That's why there is such a difference, say, between an INTJ and an INTP. The J/P access completely changes what is the external function. In this case from Te to Ne. Note that in both cases this is NOT the dominant function - that remains on the inside.
    You're getting hung up on external versus internal functions while I'm trying to explain the function of perception versus judgement.

    You don't see my Ne, you see my Ne as it's translated through my Ti.

    Just like with an INTJ, I don't JUST see his Ni, but his Ni as its translated through Te.

    (It's not cuz Te is extraverted and Ni is not, as shown by the previous Ne/Ti example)

    Perception is just that.......perception. It perceives, this it how it gathers info. It's just a gathering tool. It stops at gathering. The judging function tells us the decisions we make with what we've gathered. And, it's the decisions that's only privy to others, not what we gathered.

    My Ne gathers a whole lot of shyte, but, you only see a bit of what my Ne gathered, that which Ti decided was the most relevant to manifest. The how and why and in which form it rationalizes the gathering. Ne is external because it gathers from the outside environment, Ni is internal because it gathers from the inside. Both still just gather.

  4. #44
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You're getting hung up on external versus internal functions while I'm trying to explain the function of perception versus judgement.

    You don't see my Ne, you see my Ne as it's translated through my Ti.

    Just like with an INTJ, I don't JUST see his Ni, but his Ni as its translated through is Te.

    (It's not cuz Te is extraverted and Ni is not, as shown by the previous Ne/Ti example)

    Perception is just that.......perception. It perceives, this it how it gathers info. It's just a gathering tool. It stops at gathering. The judging function tells us the decisions we make with what we've gathered. And, it's the decisions that's only privy to others, not what we gathered.

    My Ne gathers a whole lot of shyte, but, you only see a bit of what my Ne gathered, that which Ti decided was the most relevant to manifest. The how and why and in which form it rationalizations the gathering.
    I see what you are driving at, but here's something I am pondering...

    Take an INTJ example.

    Should not the external function, the Te, be experiencing the world, and feeding the internal intuition, Ni that does stuff with it. So that to an outsider the Te looks like the "gathererer"?

    I am trying not to get too hung up on semantics, but trying to relate this to real INTJs etc I know!

  5. #45
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    the introverted function is what supplies our previous learning to our extroverted function. they both constitute experience.

    or you get that crazy look of someone trying to know something in their mind that has no form or perceptual information (depending on Ji or Pi). an attempt to sort with no real parameters.

    i don't think Fe thinks Ti is pretentious. it's paired with it. every Fe user understands Ti to some degree at least. inferior opposites will be more stressed by the other and find them more threatening, naturally. but, as an 2-3 Fe-Ti, i just see why Ti doms act like assholes at times. just as they recognize that i am more squishy than them and way more illogical/fanciful.

    unbalanced dominant introvert functions just get to be out of touch, entitled, assume they're always right, bc they don't get any decent feedback or error-checking or actualization of their ideas. then it shows that they were fuzzzzzzy/grey.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    BUT - if I were to take note of when Ti-users are pretentious, it is when they present their personal theories as truth, when they are only opinions or assertions. This can cause confusion when their works are accessed by others, because they are interpreted as facts instead of as opinions. Indeed, a Ti user can come across as possessing an intellectually superior quality and have a very closed mind to the thoughts and interpretations of others.

    .
    This is exactly it - they speak their logical theories and opinions as though they were facts, and if reminded that they are merely expressing opinions, the Ti user can attempt to hold sway by claiming that their opinion is logical. However, logical doesn't necessarily indicate correct or factual information.

    I think, also, as someone who has tertiary Te, I can personally become quite frustrated with their theories if they don't work in real life. To my little ENFP mind, logic is only useful if it can be applied to real life. After a certain point, all else seems to melt into pretentious bunkum. I imagine that the term "Ivory Tower Syndrome" was initially inspired by folks with either dominant or auxilliary Ti.

  7. #47
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Apologies for the derail, but I'm still pondering Ti and how therefore it's seen as pretentious.

    I have mostly(ha!) an open mind as to how the functions operate, but I'm thinking now of a type I know well : ISFJ - I've lived with and worked for and with a few over the years. i don't "see" their sensory side.. it's all Fe with them.

    Anyway, there was this interesting quote about "Si" the perceiving function of an ISFJ, for ISFJ's, on typelogic :

    Quote Originally Posted by Typologic on Si for ISFJs
    Jung saw IS as something of an oxymoron: sensing, which is a perceiving function, focused inward and thus away from that which is perceived (the "object"). In this light, he described this sensing as something removed from reality, full of archetypes/mythical figures/hobgoblins; sensing of one's own set of forms
    That is how it feels for me with ISXJs. I am told that their Si is a rich world, fed by their Se or Fe, but damn me I can't see it from the outside!

  8. #48
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I see what you are driving at, but here's something I am pondering...

    Take an INTJ example.

    Should not the external function, the Te, be experiencing the world, and feeding the internal intuition, Ni that does stuff with it. So that to an outsider the Te looks like the "gathererer"?
    I am trying not to get too hung up on semantics, but trying to relate this to real INTJs etc I know!
    I think what you're seeing is J versus P difference....the J in the INTJ.

    The orientation of J/P tells us how we prefer to manage the external world.

    This is why you see the "force" of the Te that you do, and may think that it's 'gathering', but, it's not, it's still a decision-making tool. The gathering tool is still the perceiving functions.

    Do we wanna manage the outer world by predominately letting our judging function do most of the grunt work, or do we wanna manage the outer world by letting our perceiving function do most of the grunt work?

    The forcefulness of how we manage the outer world (judging versus perceiving) may make it seem like that function is taking on more types of abilities than they truly are. We're just seeing more amount of their ability, not more types of abilities in that function. This is why perceivers get to have an external perceiving function and judgers get to have an external judging function so it can manage the external world through the strength of these functions.......management can come in both forms: (1) gathering and gathering and gathering, and ok, NOW I'll make a decision, or, (2) make a decision, make another decision, okay, maybe slow down and gather for a bit.

  9. #49
    Magical BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I would like to point out that, you sometimes come across as one of the most pretenious posters on the board. Just letting you know.
    I'm such a terrible person.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #50
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    I find that in some cases certain Ti users may feel as if those who do not fit their inner logical framework, are by definition, flawed. Without considering, that people can indeed be quite different in their ways and dealings.

    And attempts to understand may come off as them waiting for the other party to explain and excuse their behaviour.

    This of course applies to 'unhealthy' people, loathe as I may that particular word and its overuse...

    That was kind of a useless post.

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