Tertiary Temptation

[VagrantFarce]

Hi! :hi:

Let's discuss the validity of this idea:

Tertiary Temptation

The temptation, when we feel pressure from our Inferior Function, to explain our problems to ourselves in terms of an attitude opposite to our Secondary Function. This supports the self-understanding of our Dominant Function in Extraverted or Introverted terms, whichever we are most accustomed to. This cognitive move doesn't lead us to address the real problems, which would require a more genuine change in perspective; it does, however, restore an inner sense of harmony.

So basically, we use the Tertiary Function as an excuse to stay in an Extraverted or Introverted perspective, depending on the orientation of your Dominant Function. So if you're an E, the Tertiary Function acts as an excuse to stay in "Extraverted Mode". If you're an I, the Tertiary Function acts as an excuse to stay inside your little bubble.

For example, I absoutely identify with the description of Tertiary-Si:

Tertiary Si (INxP): "I can't possibly go along with this, I don't have any reliable concepts or map to anchor myself with: it's all arbitrary and untrustworthy and meaningless. I'd be diving in without any orientation; I'd be tripped up or harmed from any random direction, and my efforts wouldn't be cumulative. I just won't budge. I'll build myself some barricades and wait for the storm to blow over." The Secondary Function (Ne) would say: "Look around, shake up the pot, see what new arises, and deal with it imaginatively; there must be better alternatives available than being stuck here." (My secondary Ne says something more in the lines of "Pay attention to your surroundings and do the thing that will have the most interesting results. Don't be dumb just because you don't have any experience.")

But I've seen other members dismiss the descriptions of the other functions, especially Tertiary-Ni.

So I'd like to ask: does the general idea seem to stand up, regardless of how accurate the specific descriptions on that page seem to be? If so, what would be a better description of that experience? And if it doesn't feel accurate, then why not?

Hopefully we can get some dialogue going about how the actual system works, for once on this forum.

 

[Qre:us]

Interesting topic.

Predictive of my type, it would seem that this should be relevant to me:

Tertiary Fe (ExTP): "I'll lay a guilt trip on this guy, tell him all I've done for him and suggest that the next time he's in a tough spot, he might need my help. Well, hmm, ok, I'll be all friendly. I'll smile, tell him I like him, what a great guy he is. Well, hmm, that's not working, either. Ok, I'll make him look bad in the eyes of his friends." The Secondary Function (Ti) would say: "What is the truth? Not what people would agree is true, not an angle on the truth for making it palatable to someone, but the whole, honest truth?"

However, I don't see this in myself, really. It might be because the function orders of my personality's archetype does not translate directly to me.

I think this are more relevant to me:

Tertiary Te (ExFP): "Unfair!! I have to stick to my guns, I will not be bullied or cheated. Any number of authorities agree with me. All my friends agree with me. Everyone can see that my response is directly mandated by the situation: anything else would be irresponsible. These facts absolutely settle the matter, and there is no point in looking at it any further." The Secondary Function (Fi) would say: "Fair or not, reasonable or not, recognized by anyone or not, what would truly accomplish some good here?"

My functions order, I believe (amalgamating several online 'tests' and my own understanding), is:

Ne>Ti>Ni>Te>Fe=Se>Si>.....Fi

 

[BlackCat]

That link is awful. Seriously. Do you (the reader, not you vagrant) honestly think that IS_Ps get like that? Who is "the man?" Where is the concrete proof that he exists? An SP couldn't care less about this "man" unless we know he exists.

However I was in tertiary temptation for quite a while. I tested as INFP first because I was actually Fi Ni, with Se being left behind due to life circumstances. I talked to some people (particularly simulatedworld) about how to "fix" myself; and I made a plan to start doing Se more. It's been working very very well.

And the results of that now are that Ni and Se are both very strong within my mind. I take things on a surface level; and also know the greater implications and if there are any. As you can see in my sig, my functions go Fi>Se=Ni>Ti>Fe>Ne>Si>Te when it comes to strength.

I think that the way tertiary Ni can give IS_Ps anxiety is that we may be constantly trying to figure out people's motivations or some greater implication of something very important to us; when there isn't anything else to really interpret besides what's on the surface.

 

[sciski]

When it comes to ISxPs denying their tertiary-Ni description.... well, it sort of is expected, isn't it? "You're telling me this is how I act when stressed? It's all a set-up! No way, man, I gotta go my own way."

Of course, just because we use our tertiaries ingloriously when stressed, doesn't mean we cannot (consciously) use them gloriously when at peace with the world.


Also, we probably need to define 'stress'--in this context, stress refers to an urge (coming from the inferior function) to stop looking at the world from your default E/I-verted state, and start looking at it from the opposite -verted perspective. That is the cause of the stress.

It makes sense that Extraverts would grab for another Extraverted attitude while Introverts would grab for another Introverted one; at least it is consistent with what seems to be a main theme in Lenore's book: if there is one attitude a person will fight to the death to maintain, it's their dominant's orientation (E/I).

From Tertiary Defense

 

[Eric B]

That link is awful. Seriously. Do you (the reader, not you vagrant) honestly think that IS_Ps get like that? Who is "the man?" Where is the concrete proof that he exists? An SP couldn't care less about this "man" unless we know he exists.

The whole point with the tertiary is that it maintains the dominant attitude, especially when the auxiliary (and even inferior) is pulling us the opposite way (this can be found on that same wiki, IIRC). Since the tertiary is connected with vulnerability, then there are times when you will take it over Se, and it might in fact speak of stuff like "the man", for that is what Ni in a defensive stance would do. Thus the tertiary would "inflate" itself and possibly ignore the external Se facts. And it would come off as "childish" and "immature", for that's what the tertiary ultimately is, compared to the more mature auxiliary.

 

[Venom]

That link is awful. Seriously. Do you (the reader, not you vagrant) honestly think that IS_Ps get like that? Who is "the man?" Where is the concrete proof that he exists? An SP couldn't care less about this "man" unless we know he exists.

However I was in tertiary temptation for quite a while. I tested as INFP first because I was actually Fi Ni, with Se being left behind due to life circumstances. I talked to some people (particularly simulatedworld) about how to "fix" myself; and I made a plan to start doing Se more. It's been working very very well.

And the results of that now are that Ni and Se are both very strong within my mind. I take things on a surface level; and also know the greater implications and if there are any. As you can see in my sig, my functions go Fi>Se=Ni>Ti>Fe>Ne>Si>Te when it comes to strength.

I think that the way tertiary Ni can give IS_Ps anxiety is that we may be constantly trying to figure out people's motivations or some greater implication of something very important to us; when there isn't anything else to really interpret besides what's on the surface.

When it comes to ISxPs denying their tertiary-Ni description.... well, it sort of is expected, isn't it? "You're telling me this is how I act when stressed? It's all a set-up! No way, man, I gotta go my own way."

Of course, just because we use our tertiaries ingloriously when stressed, doesn't mean we cannot (consciously) use them gloriously when at peace with the world.


Also, we probably need to define 'stress'--in this context, stress refers to an urge (coming from the inferior function) to stop looking at the world from your default E/I-verted state, and start looking at it from the opposite -verted perspective. That is the cause of the stress.


From Tertiary Defense

The whole point with the tertiary is that it maintains the dominant attitude, especially when the auxiliary (and even inferior) is pulling us the opposite way (this can be found on that same wiki, IIRC). Since the tertiary is connected with vulnerability, then there are times when you will take it over Se, and it might in fact speak of stuff like "the man", for that is what Ni in a defensive stance would do. Thus the tertiary would "inflate" itself and possibly ignore the external Se facts. And it would come off as "childish" and "immature", for that's what the tertiary ultimately is, compared to the more mature auxiliary.

I think the ISXPs are just taking the word "the man" way too literally in this instance. Their tertiary Ni in this instance is simply being illustrated as the orientation that gets paranoid and suspicious that someone is trying to pull one over on them. Think ayn-rand syndrome. Ive known some ISPs who think any act directed at them is some sort of affront to their authenticity. The tertiary Ni gets suspicious and goes, "NO! you're just trying to do ____, but I KNOW whats REALLY up!". Even though Im calling it ayn-rand syndrome (because of it being Ni gone wrong), it seems to describe hippy ISP philosophy: "stand up to the man! quit your job, stay here and smoke weed in protest to the corporations! They are just out to enslave you man!"

 

[VagrantFarce]

I think the ISXPs are just taking the word "the man" way too literally in this instance. Their tertiary Ni in this instance is simply being illustrated as the orientation that gets paranoid and suspicious that someone is trying to pull one over on them. Think ayn-rand syndrome. Ive known some ISPs who think any act directed at them is some sort of affront to their authenticity. The tertiary Ni gets suspicious and goes, "NO! you're just trying to do ____, but I KNOW whats REALLY up!". Even though Im calling it ayn-rand syndrome (because of it being Ni gone wrong), it seems to describe hippy ISP philosophy: "stand up to the man! quit your job, stay here and smoke weed in protest to the corporations! They are just out to enslave you man!"

See, this is how I always understood it - typical Fight Club rhetoric. Getting hooked on over-arching perspectives, seeing through "smoke and mirrors" that simply don't exist. If they'd open their eyes for just a second, they'd realize that the world isn't trying to deceive them.

 

[Jeffster]

I talked to some people (particularly simulatedworld) about how to "fix" myself....

No wonder you started going all loopy.

Back on topic, my tertiary temptation is Reeses' peanut butter cups.

 

[Poki]

I think the ISXPs are just taking the word "the man" way too literally in this instance. Their tertiary Ni in this instance is simply being illustrated as the orientation that gets paranoid and suspicious that someone is trying to pull one over on them. Think ayn-rand syndrome. Ive known some ISPs who think any act directed at them is some sort of affront to their authenticity. The tertiary Ni gets suspicious and goes, "NO! you're just trying to do ____, but I KNOW whats REALLY up!". Even though Im calling it ayn-rand syndrome (because of it being Ni gone wrong), it seems to describe hippy ISP philosophy: "stand up to the man! quit your job, stay here and smoke weed in protest to the corporations! They are just out to enslave you man!"

I see this when I am stressed within myself and close down. Ni seemingly ties way to much together that our logic gets overloaded and dont know what to believe. The man is whoever is setting everything up because to much stuff ties together logically to be coincidence. Atleast this seems to be how I experience it. I stop trusting pretty much everyone that seems like they are a puppet of "the man" and just have to do my own thing.

What I believe it means for an ISxP to move towards Se is to not close down, keep your eyes open and just keep pushing through all this coincidence that surrounds you and live based not on what your Ni tells you but what your Se can see around you.

 

[sculpting]

I an ENFP.

Tertiary Te can get the best of me at times. When used quickly it can result in a temper tantrum or a defensive response. It also makes me think mean things sometimes when I get pissed. I have always known to dismiss the mean stuff, but it took some maturity to recognize the Te backlash pattern.

Long term Te can be really useful, but in ENFPs, it can be sort of odd and leave us isolated. We stand up, fight for a cause, point out a flaw and get decapitated in a highly Fe enviornment. Also people think we are bitchy as one minute we are nice, sweet kittens and then next we can be entj-like tigers. We dont hide what we feel, thus the change is apparent. Older ENFPs loose the sweet kitten feel-still there but seemingly hidden.

Last it leaves us with a sense of responsibility, accountibility, and very high standards which we judge ourselves against. Most ENFPs I meet often feel a sense of lingering guilt and question our own competency due to those Te standards.

 

[Thalassa]

I an ENFP.

Tertiary Te can get the best of me at times. When used quickly it can result in a temper tantrum or a defensive response. It also makes me think mean things sometimes when I get pissed. I have always known to dismiss the mean stuff, but it took some maturity to recognize the Te backlash pattern.

Long term Te can be really useful, but in ENFPs, it can be sort of odd and leave us isolated. We stand up, fight for a cause, point out a flaw and get decapitated in a highly Fe enviornment. Also people think we are bitchy as one minute we are nice, sweet kittens and then next we can be entj-like tigers. We dont hide what we feel, thus the change is apparent. Older ENFPs loose the sweet kitten feel-still there but seemingly hidden.

Last it leaves us with a sense of responsibility, accountibility, and very high standards which we judge ourselves against. Most ENFPs I meet often feel a sense of lingering guilt and question our own competency due to those Te standards.

I relate to every word of this. People think I can be so loving and even too sensitive and emo, but my own sisters will say "have marmalade go yell at them for you" if someone is being bullied or pushed around, and my mother tells people "marmalade doesn't take any shit!" I think I do definitely come off as unpleasantly TJ at times:steam:, and at others am practically a ball of fluff.