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  1. #71
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Jenniffer said it pretty well. Who would expect a web-board to communicate in the same way as academia?

    I don't understand this need to prove that someone wasn't constructive. Maybe he thought he was, and wasn't, maybe he was semi-constructive and semi-derogatory, or maybe he was just trolling you. Now, I have to ask, how are you goign to successfully run a web based project if one single criticism which you don't find constructive, drives you to this reaction? :confused: Why not just let it go? For someone so centred on being constructive, it seems like an amazingly unconstructive way to spend your time.

    And also: why so hard to imagine that someone might think they are being constructive from their point of view, though this may not fit in with your vision.

    Could this be a language issue? Constructive doesn't mean the same as "specific tips"...maybe you should have been more clear what you wanted, and said "I'm happy with the overall look of the site, but would like some small tips on how to make it more user-friendly". Then, people would now within what framework you wanted to hold the discussion...surelyfor an academic this is basic stuff?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  2. #72
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post

    I'd still appreciate if someone would explain to me how Rhu's first post could be considered helpful by/to any kind of person.
    Your question was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    How do you think value can be added to the site to further drive home to newcomers the flesh and blood manifestations of the 16 types?
    Rhu answered this question with more depth than you asked for:

    From an end-user's standpoint, the site, while simple enough to navigate, is poorly designed.
    I took this to mean that he feels the site does not look good enough. I also felt that way. You click on "woman" and there are 16 pictures which you have to scroll through. Ok, fine. Everyone has different concepts of what looks good and what is good design... I can't tell you anything constructive, but maybe, especially for the philosopher page, you can include hyperlinks so I don't have to scroll through for information.

    I think he told you what he felt was wrong in order for you to take another look at his issues and come to your own constructions. But if you'd like me to finish his thoughts, I can do so:

    Each page presents a great deal of information with absolutely no depth,
    I took this to mean that the page looks cluttered (observation), which can be solved with links and/or multiple pages. Under the philosopher page, there were random letter which I know to be functions. But a newbie would not know that. There was no description. So add one. In fact, there were no descriptions of anything. This would frustrate an "S" type to no end, imo.

    explanation,
    There is a random quote under each picture and you have to infer meaning. Maybe in addition to the tagline (which honestly, some of them are interchangeable - ENTP and ESTP, for instance - again, under "women") you could add a brief description of what each types style is in work, love, childhood, etc... or maybe even add something about their styles of interaction.

    challenge to thought,
    I don't know what he means specifically, but I can only assume this is a reiteration.

    or opening for discussion. It lacks any "hook" to make a user have any interest in coming back.
    There is no way to ask or discuss anything in detail. If I don't "get" a quote, what did I learn about the type? There just needs to be more information. If I were a newbie to type theory, I would glance at your page once, chuckle and then move on. Rhu is saying that you should put more thought into what information you are trying to convey and he can't actually tell you what that is because only you would know.

    I thought his post was helpful. After looking at the site, I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of it. It was a (vague?) illustration of a person who may or may not be a certain type, but was it supposed to be anything more than that? It may show a random celebrity and a random quote, but how does that pertain to me in any way? All I learned about INTPs is that Weaver is one and she was shy. All I learned about "myself" is that Rose McGowan is an ENTP and that she doesn't downplay herself. It wasn't specific enough, especially if I don't know who Rose McGowan is. So Rhu was making the point that you need to get the user to come back - and the way you do that?: Add a forum, a Q&A, a description of the types, a description of how the types interact, add a few more celebrities under each type for comparison, hyperlinks, and just more... stuff, I guess.

    Does this clear it up?

  3. #73
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    I don't think the quote for Arnold is too fitting of his type... not saying he's not INTJ, just saying you should have a more INTJ-appropriate quote... just my 2 cents.

  4. #74
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't understand this need to prove that someone wasn't constructive. Maybe he thought he was, and wasn't, maybe he was semi-constructive and semi-derogatory, or maybe he was just trolling you. Now, I have to ask, how are you goign to successfully run a web based project if one single criticism which you don't find constructive, drives you to this reaction? :confused: Why not just let it go? For someone so centred on being constructive, it seems like an amazingly unconstructive way to spend your time.
    Point taken!

    I think it's partly a question of being on the fence regarding the value to me of these boards and partly a question of still learning to balance openmindedness with effectiveness which can lead me to pursue points until I can either concede or comfortably conclude that I was right. What happens is that I don't post for a while and then I remember all the worthwhile feedback I've gotten here and then I come back and get blindsided until I realize I'm reliving the xkcd "Someone is WRONG on the internet!" comic.

    And also: why so hard to imagine that someone might think they are being constructive from their point of view, though this may not fit in with your vision.

    Could this be a language issue? Constructive doesn't mean the same as "specific tips"...maybe you should have been more clear what you wanted, and said "I'm happy with the overall look of the site, but would like some small tips on how to make it more user-friendly". Then, people would now within what framework you wanted to hold the discussion...
    Yes, if I were to do it again I would've communicated that we are well aware that the site is poorly designed and explained and backed up and just in general needs a lot of work and that we're looking for concrete ways of improving the site.

    surelyfor an academic this is basic stuff?
    Yes and no. I'm finding out that seminars and paper-writing are all about figuring out that what is obvious to oneself is not obvious to others.

    I have to go, but jenocyde, thanks for your post! I'll reply later.

  5. #75
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I took this to mean that he feels the site does not look good enough. I also felt that way. You click on "woman" and there are 16 pictures which you have to scroll through. Ok, fine. Everyone has different concepts of what looks good and what is good design... I can't tell you anything constructive, but maybe, especially for the philosopher page, you can include hyperlinks so I don't have to scroll through for information. (...) I took this to mean that the page looks cluttered (observation), which can be solved with links and/or multiple pages.
    I agree; the design needs work. I'm letting Blackwater handle the philosopher page, but for the celebrities I'd really like to convey the totality of the type spectrum somehow.

    I don't have the technical skills for this, but I visualize e.g. a page with 16 cells featuring one or more small pictures of celebrities under the heading of their type and then when you mouse-over a cell, it pops out with bigger pictures and the additional content of the name and a quote for each celebrity. Anyone think this is worth trying out...?

    Under the philosopher page, there were random letter which I know to be functions. But a newbie would not know that. There was no description. So add one. In fact, there were no descriptions of anything. This would frustrate an "S" type to no end, imo.
    Yeah, we should add links to explanations somewhere, particularly of the functions since that's more like MBTI 202 than 101, but it won't hurt to also link to what we consider to be the best online descriptions of the types.

    There is a random quote under each picture and you have to infer meaning. Maybe in addition to the tagline (which honestly, some of them are interchangeable - ENTP and ESTP, for instance - again, under "women") you could add a brief description of what each types style is in work, love, childhood, etc... or maybe even add something about their styles of interaction.

    There is no way to ask or discuss anything in detail. If I don't "get" a quote, what did I learn about the type? There just needs to be more information. If I were a newbie to type theory, I would glance at your page once, chuckle and then move on.
    Feedback on the quotes is very welcome! I'm always looking for more characteristic ones.

    Am I to understand that you identify with the Angelina Jolie ESTP quote ("I don't believe in guilt, I believe in living on impulse.") just as much as with the Rose McGowan ENTP quote ("Why should I downplay myself to make someone else more comfortable?")?

    The idea is to rely on people's existing (or elsewhere researched) feel for each celebrity (that's why they're celebrities and not, say, descriptions of the most characteristic exemplars of each type that I know IRL), but I'll add a page for each celebrity giving a little bit of background for the typing and links to the interviews on which the typing is based. I'll also add a page for each type showing both genders together.

    After looking at the site, I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of it. It was a (vague?) illustration of a person who may or may not be a certain type, but was it supposed to be anything more than that?
    Not really. :redface:

    I myself would have appreciated a site like this when I first got into MBTI and stumbled to match the people I knew and met to the descriptions I read. When next I have time to work on the site I'll add a mission statement to the site explaining what I'm trying to provide.

    Add a forum, a Q&A, a description of the types, a description of how the types interact, add a few more celebrities under each type for comparison, hyperlinks, and just more... stuff, I guess.
    We're definitely going for multiple celebrities. We'll consider the forum. The FAQ will write itself as we get feedback. We won't be teaching MBTI (unless Blackwater decides to write his own descriptions (hint, hint, nudge, nudge, Blackwater )), although we'll add links to others who do.

    Does this clear it up?
    I'm taking tcda's advice and not pursuing the Rhu thing any further, but I do appreciate your take; thanks again!

    ---

    Feedback continues to be welcome!

  6. #76
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I agree; the design needs work. I'm letting Blackwater handle the philosopher page, but for the celebrities I'd really like to convey the totality of the type spectrum somehow.

    I don't have the technical skills for this, but I visualize e.g. a page with 16 cells featuring one or more small pictures of celebrities under the heading of their type and then when you mouse-over a cell, it pops out with bigger pictures and the additional content of the name and a quote for each celebrity. Anyone think this is worth trying out...?
    I recommend an easy-to-use content management system like Drupal or Joomla, it can do all that you listed. Google also loves Drupal, and better rankings = traffic. You don't need any HTML knowledge to use it, and it makes professional looking pages for free.

    If you definitely want to upgrade design eventually, better sooner than later because transferring all the data will only get harder the more you add.

  7. #77
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Thanks for that instructive tip, ajblaise! Someone else did recommend Drupal earlier in the thread, and I clicked on the link but didn't immediately recognize that it could do that for me, so I appreciate your explanation. When next I have time I'll thoroughly check it out and, if I don't find myself in over my head, upgrade the site.

  8. #78
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Thanks for that instructive tip, ajblaise! Someone else did recommend Drupal earlier in the thread, and I clicked on the link but didn't immediately recognize that it could do that for me, so I appreciate your explanation. When next I have time I'll thoroughly check it out and, if I don't find myself in over my head, upgrade the site.
    If you decide to use it eventually, you might want to consider moving your domain to GoDaddy -- they have a Drupal auto-installation feature, so you wouldn't need to know anything about FTP or site uploading. Makes it uber simple.

    If you want to see how sweet your site could look, browse the Drupal themes - Themes | drupal.org

  9. #79
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Thanks again, ajblaise!

  10. #80
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    I like your site. Although you have some authors in your philosophers' section, you should add a separate list of author types.

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