CelebrityTypes.com: Feedback welcome

[Economica]

For an INTP someone applying quality thought to your work is a compliment in itself. If I put effort into something I want someone to acknowledge it and might be more offended if they were to hold back their opinion. If someone's criticism provokes thought it is one of the most valuable things. Sugar coating is usually a waste. Ideas for the future can usually be easily deduced from quality criticism.

Well, I'm not deducing any ideas based on Rhu's first post, but since several of you seem to think it was constructive, I tentatively conclude that the fault must be mine.

I probably should have consulted Blackwater before jumping into this thread:

Blackwater and I are friendly and reasonable people. (Which is to say, I'm friendly and he's reasonable. )

:redface:

Here is some actual constructive criticism for Economica: stop asking us for our opinion. If I understand correctly the site is supposed to be for people who are not familiar with MBTI. That means that the people on TypeC and INTPc are completely different from the people you are trying to attract. Any feedback we give about the site will be bad for that very reason. Your best feedback will be from people who don't know a thing about MBTI.

The target audience is people who are just getting into MBTI and starting to google to find out which real people are which type. (See the attached screenshot from the site statistics.) We don't aim to teach MBTI (not unless Blackwater decides to write his own descriptions, anyway), but to illustrate it.

I don't see why your feedback should be moot...?

Economica, I don't really mean to be antagonistic here, but are you sure you're inTj, because you seem to be engaging in quite a bit of Fe for a rational.

Thanks, I try.

Yes, I'm INTJ. And I work alongside INTPs in academia. I've read their referee reports and heard their comments at seminars. Even when they're slamming someone's work, they do it constructively, concretizing possible ways of improving the paper and leaving authors to draw their own conclusions about whether to continue to work on the paper or cut their losses and move on.

Of course, it could be that they're simply conforming to expectations of a culture not solely populated by INTPs, but my impression is that they're following the golden rule because even INTPs appreciate a constructive approach (example 1, example 2).

Regardless, if it's feedback and constructive criticism you want...

Yes, please!

The site needs elaboration. Even if it is a beta, it's still not enough. People who know MBTI will disagree with many of the type assessments, people who are researching will be disappointed with lack of explanations, and passerby's who stumble on it will simply stumble away from it.

Agreed, the site needs a lot of work. For me it's a question of where to begin, so knowing what the most people are missing the most (e.g. multiple celebrities? background for each typing? redesign? (how else should it be designed? is there any way we can improve it in html, because it'll be a while before we're able to bring someone on board with real skills?) etc.) is helpful. Thanks for your suggestions on this.

This is also the reason why INTPc gave you a more negative response than you may have hoped for. INTPs live off of reasoning, the most so of all the rationals, and the little reasoning you offer in the form of quotes is hardly sufficient for true backing. Regardless of the medium, to ask an INTP's opinions on a matter in a way that does not meet their basic requirements will never yield a positive result.

Point taken. Although, I don't know about never; I think mature individuals of any type are able to overcome their own gut reactions and meet other people halfway. But if there is a next time for me at INTPc, I'll definitely be trying a more, dare I say, diplomatic approach.

View attachment 4436

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

The target audience is people who are just getting into MBTI and starting to google to find out which real people are which type. (See the attached screenshot from the site statistics.) We don't aim to teach MBTI (not unless Blackwater decides to write his own descriptions, anyway), but to illustrate it.

I don't see why your feedback should be moot...?

View attachment 4436

That attachment is interesting.

My point about feedback is that often knowledgable people are at a disadvantage when it comes to relating to the average person. The knowledge prevents them from understanding the perspective of someone who is not knowledgable.

If your target audience is people who are just getting into MBTI, then your best feedback will come from people who are just getting into MBTI. They will be able to tell you how to attract other people who are like them.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

How did we get here?

I've found myself living in a shotgun shack.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't see why your feedback should be moot...?

I think the point is, "Why are you requesting feedback from a non-target audience" per se?

Are we your demographic?

You wouldn't screen movies with an audience that doesn't represent your viewer demographic, would you?

Yes, I'm INTJ. And I work alongside INTPs in academia. I've read their referee reports and heard their comments at seminars. Even when they're slamming someone's work, they do it constructively, concretizing possible ways of improving the paper and leaving authors to draw their own conclusions about whether to continue to work on the paper or cut their losses and move on.

Context, dear.

You're comparing academia, where someone has an immense intellectual investment, to posting on an INTPc site populated by people who have no investment in your ideas or work and where most of the populace is twenty years old with other things on their minds.

It's not even close to the same category.

How did we get here?
I've found myself living in a shotgun shack.

Are they loaded?

 

[Economica]

My point about feedback is that often knowledgable people are at a disadvantage when it comes to relating to the average person. The knowledge prevents them from understanding the perspective of someone who is not knowledgable.

If your target audience is people who are just getting into MBTI, then your best feedback will come from people who are just getting into MBTI. They will be able to tell you how to attract other people who are like them.

You really throw me sometimes.

This site is full of people who are just getting into MBTI. Look at the prevalence of typing arguments by crude stereotype. IMO it takes years of real life interaction with lots of different people to tune one's antennae and learn to recognize the functions in action given different upbringing, education, environments, IQ, etc. Even the minority of members who have extensive experience still have plenty of blind spots and biases and benefit from the typing input of others with experience (which is why Blackwater and I will always remain open to arguments against any given typing).

How did we get here?

Uh, yeah, sorry - mods, feel free to merge some or all of this derail with my site feedback thread.

Context, dear.

You're comparing academia, where someone has an immense intellectual investment, to posting on an INTPc site populated by people who have no investment in your ideas or work and where most of the populace is twenty years old with other things on their minds.

It's not even close to the same category.

I think some of the INTPs on INTPc have as much of an investment in MBTI as any scientist has in the work of a peer. ("Ben Stein?? Really? Please change that to someone less repulsive.") And is Rhu ~20?

Regardless, I believe my point about INTPs actually preferring a constructive approach themselves stands?

I'm off to the gym, BBL!

 

[miss fortune]

Just as a note- I've never run across anyone who was really being rude to me or overly blunt to me when on INTPc, but then again, when I'm there, I'm there to play

I just find the topics to be of less interest to me there and think that the site moves a bit slowly for my 2 second attention span

 

[Totenkindly]

Economica, I don't really mean to be antagonistic here, but are you sure you're inTj, because you seem to be engaging in quite a bit of Fe for a rational.

Uh, no... the real issue is that she consistently expects Te-style feedback (i.e., her idea of constructive = implementational ideas) but asks a bunch of Ti-style people for it, and all we naturally do is a conceptual overview of the structural inconsistencies... which to us is VERY constructive, it's how we work the issues... and I guess to a more practical person it's not helpful.

Her Te demands are inherent to her outlook and approach and drive the conflict when trying to engage Ti. I think even a lot of the assertions that seem emotional because of their seeming obstinance aren't, really; that level of bull-doggedness is pretty typical Te behavior when they're trying to work a situation and we read more emotionality into it than warranted because for us we only pursue things so aggressively when we ARE feeling emotional.

just my two cents.

 

[Economica]

Her Te demands are inherent to her outlook and approach and drive the conflict when trying to engage Ti. I think even a lot of the assertions that seem emotional because of their seeming obstinance aren't, really; that level of bull-doggedness is pretty typical Te behavior when they're trying to work a situation and we read more emotionality into it than warranted because for us we only pursue things so aggressively when we ARE feeling emotional.

This.

and I guess to a more practical person it's not helpful.

I'd still appreciate if someone would explain to me how Rhu's first post could be considered helpful by/to any kind of person.

/gym

 

[VagrantFarce]

I think it's best to just shut up about Rhu now.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'd still appreciate if someone would explain to me how Rhu's first post could be considered helpful by/to any kind of person.

Sigh. If you don't see it, I have no idea how to explain it to you.

 

[tcda]

Jenniffer said it pretty well. Who would expect a web-board to communicate in the same way as academia?

I don't understand this need to prove that someone wasn't constructive. Maybe he thought he was, and wasn't, maybe he was semi-constructive and semi-derogatory, or maybe he was just trolling you. Now, I have to ask, how are you goign to successfully run a web based project if one single criticism which you don't find constructive, drives you to this reaction? Why not just let it go? For someone so centred on being constructive, it seems like an amazingly unconstructive way to spend your time.

And also: why so hard to imagine that someone might think they are being constructive from their point of view, though this may not fit in with your vision.

Could this be a language issue? Constructive doesn't mean the same as "specific tips"...maybe you should have been more clear what you wanted, and said "I'm happy with the overall look of the site, but would like some small tips on how to make it more user-friendly". Then, people would now within what framework you wanted to hold the discussion...surelyfor an academic this is basic stuff?

 

[jenocyde]

I'd still appreciate if someone would explain to me how Rhu's first post could be considered helpful by/to any kind of person.

Your question was this:

How do you think value can be added to the site to further drive home to newcomers the flesh and blood manifestations of the 16 types?

Rhu answered this question with more depth than you asked for:

From an end-user's standpoint, the site, while simple enough to navigate, is poorly designed.

I took this to mean that he feels the site does not look good enough. I also felt that way. You click on "woman" and there are 16 pictures which you have to scroll through. Ok, fine. Everyone has different concepts of what looks good and what is good design... I can't tell you anything constructive, but maybe, especially for the philosopher page, you can include hyperlinks so I don't have to scroll through for information.

I think he told you what he felt was wrong in order for you to take another look at his issues and come to your own constructions. But if you'd like me to finish his thoughts, I can do so:

Each page presents a great deal of information with absolutely no depth,

I took this to mean that the page looks cluttered (observation), which can be solved with links and/or multiple pages. Under the philosopher page, there were random letter which I know to be functions. But a newbie would not know that. There was no description. So add one. In fact, there were no descriptions of anything. This would frustrate an "S" type to no end, imo.

explanation,

There is a random quote under each picture and you have to infer meaning. Maybe in addition to the tagline (which honestly, some of them are interchangeable - ENTP and ESTP, for instance - again, under "women") you could add a brief description of what each types style is in work, love, childhood, etc... or maybe even add something about their styles of interaction.

challenge to thought,

I don't know what he means specifically, but I can only assume this is a reiteration.

or opening for discussion. It lacks any "hook" to make a user have any interest in coming back.

There is no way to ask or discuss anything in detail. If I don't "get" a quote, what did I learn about the type? There just needs to be more information. If I were a newbie to type theory, I would glance at your page once, chuckle and then move on. Rhu is saying that you should put more thought into what information you are trying to convey and he can't actually tell you what that is because only you would know.

I thought his post was helpful. After looking at the site, I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of it. It was a (vague?) illustration of a person who may or may not be a certain type, but was it supposed to be anything more than that? It may show a random celebrity and a random quote, but how does that pertain to me in any way? All I learned about INTPs is that Weaver is one and she was shy. All I learned about "myself" is that Rose McGowan is an ENTP and that she doesn't downplay herself. It wasn't specific enough, especially if I don't know who Rose McGowan is. So Rhu was making the point that you need to get the user to come back - and the way you do that?: Add a forum, a Q&A, a description of the types, a description of how the types interact, add a few more celebrities under each type for comparison, hyperlinks, and just more... stuff, I guess.

Does this clear it up?

 

[NewEra]

I don't think the quote for Arnold is too fitting of his type... not saying he's not INTJ, just saying you should have a more INTJ-appropriate quote... just my 2 cents.

 

[Economica]

I don't understand this need to prove that someone wasn't constructive. Maybe he thought he was, and wasn't, maybe he was semi-constructive and semi-derogatory, or maybe he was just trolling you. Now, I have to ask, how are you goign to successfully run a web based project if one single criticism which you don't find constructive, drives you to this reaction? Why not just let it go? For someone so centred on being constructive, it seems like an amazingly unconstructive way to spend your time.

Point taken!

I think it's partly a question of being on the fence regarding the value to me of these boards and partly a question of still learning to balance openmindedness with effectiveness which can lead me to pursue points until I can either concede or comfortably conclude that I was right. What happens is that I don't post for a while and then I remember all the worthwhile feedback I've gotten here and then I come back and get blindsided until I realize I'm reliving the xkcd "Someone is WRONG on the internet!" comic.

And also: why so hard to imagine that someone might think they are being constructive from their point of view, though this may not fit in with your vision.

Could this be a language issue? Constructive doesn't mean the same as "specific tips"...maybe you should have been more clear what you wanted, and said "I'm happy with the overall look of the site, but would like some small tips on how to make it more user-friendly". Then, people would now within what framework you wanted to hold the discussion...

Yes, if I were to do it again I would've communicated that we are well aware that the site is poorly designed and explained and backed up and just in general needs a lot of work and that we're looking for concrete ways of improving the site.

surelyfor an academic this is basic stuff?

Yes and no. I'm finding out that seminars and paper-writing are all about figuring out that what is obvious to oneself is not obvious to others.

I have to go, but jenocyde, thanks for your post! I'll reply later.

 

[Economica]

I took this to mean that he feels the site does not look good enough. I also felt that way. You click on "woman" and there are 16 pictures which you have to scroll through. Ok, fine. Everyone has different concepts of what looks good and what is good design... I can't tell you anything constructive, but maybe, especially for the philosopher page, you can include hyperlinks so I don't have to scroll through for information. (...) I took this to mean that the page looks cluttered (observation), which can be solved with links and/or multiple pages.

I agree; the design needs work. I'm letting Blackwater handle the philosopher page, but for the celebrities I'd really like to convey the totality of the type spectrum somehow.

I don't have the technical skills for this, but I visualize e.g. a page with 16 cells featuring one or more small pictures of celebrities under the heading of their type and then when you mouse-over a cell, it pops out with bigger pictures and the additional content of the name and a quote for each celebrity. Anyone think this is worth trying out...?

Under the philosopher page, there were random letter which I know to be functions. But a newbie would not know that. There was no description. So add one. In fact, there were no descriptions of anything. This would frustrate an "S" type to no end, imo.

Yeah, we should add links to explanations somewhere, particularly of the functions since that's more like MBTI 202 than 101, but it won't hurt to also link to what we consider to be the best online descriptions of the types.

There is a random quote under each picture and you have to infer meaning. Maybe in addition to the tagline (which honestly, some of them are interchangeable - ENTP and ESTP, for instance - again, under "women") you could add a brief description of what each types style is in work, love, childhood, etc... or maybe even add something about their styles of interaction.

There is no way to ask or discuss anything in detail. If I don't "get" a quote, what did I learn about the type? There just needs to be more information. If I were a newbie to type theory, I would glance at your page once, chuckle and then move on.

Feedback on the quotes is very welcome! I'm always looking for more characteristic ones.

Am I to understand that you identify with the Angelina Jolie ESTP quote ("I don't believe in guilt, I believe in living on impulse.") just as much as with the Rose McGowan ENTP quote ("Why should I downplay myself to make someone else more comfortable?")?

The idea is to rely on people's existing (or elsewhere researched) feel for each celebrity (that's why they're celebrities and not, say, descriptions of the most characteristic exemplars of each type that I know IRL), but I'll add a page for each celebrity giving a little bit of background for the typing and links to the interviews on which the typing is based. I'll also add a page for each type showing both genders together.

After looking at the site, I'm not sure that I understand the purpose of it. It was a (vague?) illustration of a person who may or may not be a certain type, but was it supposed to be anything more than that?

Not really. :redface:

I myself would have appreciated a site like this when I first got into MBTI and stumbled to match the people I knew and met to the descriptions I read. When next I have time to work on the site I'll add a mission statement to the site explaining what I'm trying to provide.

Add a forum, a Q&A, a description of the types, a description of how the types interact, add a few more celebrities under each type for comparison, hyperlinks, and just more... stuff, I guess.

We're definitely going for multiple celebrities. We'll consider the forum. The FAQ will write itself as we get feedback. We won't be teaching MBTI (unless Blackwater decides to write his own descriptions (hint, hint, nudge, nudge, Blackwater )), although we'll add links to others who do.

Does this clear it up?

I'm taking tcda's advice and not pursuing the Rhu thing any further, but I do appreciate your take; thanks again!

---

Feedback continues to be welcome!

 

[ajblaise]

I agree; the design needs work. I'm letting Blackwater handle the philosopher page, but for the celebrities I'd really like to convey the totality of the type spectrum somehow.

I don't have the technical skills for this, but I visualize e.g. a page with 16 cells featuring one or more small pictures of celebrities under the heading of their type and then when you mouse-over a cell, it pops out with bigger pictures and the additional content of the name and a quote for each celebrity. Anyone think this is worth trying out...?

I recommend an easy-to-use content management system like Drupal or Joomla, it can do all that you listed. Google also loves Drupal, and better rankings = traffic. You don't need any HTML knowledge to use it, and it makes professional looking pages for free.

If you definitely want to upgrade design eventually, better sooner than later because transferring all the data will only get harder the more you add.

 

[Economica]

Thanks for that instructive tip, ajblaise! Someone else did recommend Drupal earlier in the thread, and I clicked on the link but didn't immediately recognize that it could do that for me, so I appreciate your explanation. When next I have time I'll thoroughly check it out and, if I don't find myself in over my head, upgrade the site.

 

[ajblaise]

Thanks for that instructive tip, ajblaise! Someone else did recommend Drupal earlier in the thread, and I clicked on the link but didn't immediately recognize that it could do that for me, so I appreciate your explanation. When next I have time I'll thoroughly check it out and, if I don't find myself in over my head, upgrade the site.

If you decide to use it eventually, you might want to consider moving your domain to GoDaddy -- they have a Drupal auto-installation feature, so you wouldn't need to know anything about FTP or site uploading. Makes it uber simple.

If you want to see how sweet your site could look, browse the Drupal themes - Themes | drupal.org

 

[Economica]

Thanks again, ajblaise!

 

[Lotr246]

I like your site. Although you have some authors in your philosophers' section, you should add a separate list of author types.