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  1. #11
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I know that some people say that an NT should have no natural Se (quoting you on that one simulatedworld) but why not? Do we have to stick with the whole prescribed linear view of what functions we can and can't have as a type instead of looking at the first two which are what really define a function? I don't get it- it's too inflexible
    I certainly don't think so -- I'm not a fan of the whole function order idea anyway. It seems far too much like trying to stratify and oversimplify something that's both enormously complex and almost unmeasurably vague. We are who we are, and typing or any other sort of personality classification is, at best, only a "hmm - I guess this one fits me best more or less" sort of thing. Often it can help us realize differences between different ways of looking at things, but the whole "you're A, so you can't also be B" predictive thing doesn't seem to hold up, to me.

    p.s -- and don't think we've forgotten that you spent your first, what was it, 5 months(?) here claiming to be an ESTP, and that only a few people called you on it, and only after quite some time .
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #12
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    right you are!

    I totally agree with you, and am glad to see you posting!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #13
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I certainly don't think so -- I'm not a fan of the whole function order idea anyway. It seems far too much like trying to stratify and oversimplify something that's both enormously complex and almost unmeasurably vague. We are who we are, and typing or any other sort of personality classification is, at best, only a "hmm - I guess this one fits me best more or less" sort of thing. Often it can help us realize differences between different ways of looking at things, but the whole "you're A, so you can't also be B" predictive thing doesn't seem to hold up, to me.

    p.s -- and don't think we've forgotten that you spent your first, what was it, 5 months(?) here claiming to be an ESTP, and that only a few people called you on it, and only after quite some time .
    I agree, I really don't like functional analysis, and I tend to think people know the first and possibl the second... and what they sulk at and that about it... it all gets too fragmneted and artifical.... woops I better leg it because 80% f the forum will chase me and stick my head down the loo a flush

  4. #14
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    I think the first two functions are the ones that determine type, and the others vary. I'm consistently Ne + Ti (heavy on the Ne), so ENTP it is.
    I have a vagina.


    ENTP . 7w6 sx/sp

  5. #15
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Well, if simulatedworld said NTs can't have any natural Se, then it must be the truth.

    You're screwed, whatever.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  6. #16
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I have a high Se function, it's one of the functions that seems most easily trained. But!

    It still doesn't and never will come natural to me.

    Whenever I focus on doing certain activities where Se is needed. My Se is excellent. At that moment, it seems to come natural to me. It's like body memory.

    But if I'm my usual self without the need to use Se. Se is pretty much -completely- absent. And sensotard moments are abundant.

    So even though Se can be trained. I don't think an NT can train it to become quite automated even in comfort zones. That seems the general consensus anyhow.

    But who knows, you might be the exception to the rule.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    (sorry NFs, but you're the ones that really mystify me as to how you evolved- not being mean, just honest *hangs head*)
    Every ENTP I have met in real life says they have "bursts" of Se. A long time ago I started a thread as it didnt make any sense given the theory, but I dont think the thread really went anywhere. "entps and Se" or something like that.

    Could this be the natural tactility of Ti combined with Ne going utterly crazy in the moment-so you kinda end up at Se maybe? NeFi wants to become with everything-ie dissolve into waves and patterns. Maybe NeTi wants to become with the moment or some such craziness?? I dunno..Typically the ENFP will be symmetric to an ENTP, but the symmetry broke down here, thus the dead end.


    Fe is the foundation of reciprocal social caring for the group. It works really great on the group as a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" form of love and social caring, but may neglect the strays/outsiders-especially the SiFe variety.

    Fi evolved to be pure empathy and take care of the downtrodden that it doesnt benefit anyone else to take care of. Sombody's gotta love the strays, the three legged dogs, social misfits and so on...

  8. #18
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Do we have to stick with the whole prescribed linear view of what functions we can and can't have as a type instead of looking at the first two which are what really define a function?
    Absolutely not. You're not limited by the rigid views of other people.
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  9. #19
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    yeah- the more I've looked at the people on this site and in real life and looked at the theories and applications I've thought that the whole rigid structure of the tertiary and inferior functions are not applicable to real people. The first two being in order are what would give a type- my first two are Ne and Ti, therefore ENTP, but then the third is Se, not Fe (yeah, I'm a heartless bitch )... I was just questioning the rigid views of type structure that some people on the site seem to hold, and if the rigid structure was the only way that people were to view type, if people who don't fit into the structure are questionable.

    I think that a lot of intuitives have strong sensing preferences and a lot of sensors have strong intuition- the whole dichotomy being black and white is absolute bullshit

    I enjoy Se, it's not as relentless as Ne or Ti, and seems to offer a bit more freedom at times. I just was kind of wondering why intuitives often seem to deny having any sensing abilities and look down on those who do really- we all have the same 8 functions really (ok- my Fi barely registers, but that's beside the point)

    just curious!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #20
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    I'm not sure... Even though I don't think that every type must always have a certain given set of functions in certain given order, I also think that the two perceiving functions must be always paired (Ne+Si or Ni+Se), and one of the sets should always come more natural to the given type. It's easy to dismiss the function theory, but the fact is that without functions there would be no typology. The problem is that no one here understands the fuctions and the rules of their usage completely. *shrugs*

    As I understand it, people might actually have in mind two different kinds of Se (or any other perceiving function). The first kind is the "real" Se and the second kind is the "false" Se. I don't know how I'd illustrate it on ENTPs, so I'll take certain ENFPs as an example. The ENFPs I have in mind love to "live in the present" and indulge in it, they are very sensual, stylish and they really enjoy "wordly pleasures". But even though all these traits can stem from Se in certain cases, they don't necessarily have to have anything to do with Se as a way of perception. In this sense, the ENFPs use the Se+Ni only rarely. Most of the time they're all about Ne+Si.

    I have a similar experience with Ni, actually. I really love the way Ni works, I love Ni artists more than any others, I love symbols and dreams etc. etc., but in fact I'm only Fi+Ne-ing all these Ni things, I don't know how I'd produce them myself (which is probably why I find them so fascinating in the first place). It's not like I don't have any Ni - I'm pretty sure I've experienced one or two genuinely Ni moments in my life, but they were something very special to me, something one can't miss, because they were so dissimilar to my usual way of perceiving. Besides them, I've had a few strange "premonitions" that weren't real Ni, because Ni in itself doesn't produce premonitions, it's in fact completely logical.

    ^ I'm sorry if I'm rambling, I just think that if you're really sure you use Se consistently and as well as Ne, there can be a chance you are mistyped. But the key question here is, what do you mean by Se?

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