why are we so angry?

[sculpting]

The more I learn and the more I watch others, I keep seeing the same frustrations arise across typological categories-specifically across the (TeFi)/(TiFe) divide, regardless of which function order predominates. Call it type bashing if you'd like. Here and IRL.

Rather than reaching a place of understanding and mutual forgiveness of the others' differences, understanding the diffs in the jungian functions seems to lead to a more venomous dislike of those who use the other function classes. I just see more and more frustration-hypersensitivity?

An example:Fi judges others actions on its own value set, why get angry at an Fi user for doing so? Instead point this out to them and then counter with why your function combination does not do so... An attempt at education?

The same could be said for Ti seemingly being "mean" to an Fi user, Te being bossy and dominating to an Fe user, or Fe feeling controlling to a Te user.

As a group we should be better than folks in the real world at forgiving and attempting to understand others who differ from us. Instead we seem to be an order of magnitude less forgiving.

Why is this?

Do we assume that once the other understands, they should be able to change?

Do we expect they will not keep behaving according to type-even once they understand the "flaws" of said type?

How much change can you expect from another type?

 

[Halla74]

Interesting.

I don't expect anyone to change.

I expect that people will use their overall body of knowledge and understanding to communicate effectively with others about what is necessary/desired and let the rest spill out in the mix.

I've tried in the past to pitch things a certain way to another person if I had knowledge of their MBTI type (or a strong hunch based on personal observations) but I've never gotten pissed if another person did not morph their standpoint on a given issue to be in accordance with mine if there were a disagreement. I'm all about people being able to agree to disagree, and be OK with it, and not walk off pissed like spoliled little children.

 

[NewEra]

I think the real questions is: Why are YOU so happy?












newwink

 

[sculpting]

I agree w you Halla about live and let live pretty much.

I realized this may just be me noticing this though.

It took a few minutes pondering why.

Fi seems to be pick up on negativity and I think as I scroll the threads I see and notice the negative comments and they stick with me more than the positive comments. This ties in nicely with the idea of Fi being filled with pain and sorrow on the "Fi is..." thread and the "Fi users, tell me the happy things..."thread.

Fi in NLP terms is an "away from" meta program:

"Away-From" Meta Program -- habitually, reflexively and unconsciously -- which automatically presents to their awareness something negative so they can move away from it, and it filters from their perception and thinking the positive which they would want -- if they perceived it.

NLP Meta Programs, by John David Hoag


So likely I weight the negative input and retain but don't always retain the positive.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I think feeling emotions is a human trait, irrespective of type. I think it's how one filters and processes those feelings that type dynamics comes in.

Why are people angry? I've seen plenty of anger exuding from Fe doms/auxs on here, as well as Te, Fi, Ti, Ni, Ne, Se, and Si. I have my own theory about why people are angry. I think anger is rampant in our culture. And I believe it has something to do with our inherent separation from each other in an intimate way; too much superficiality and not enough intimacy.

I'm sure the NTs will have a field day with this.

 

[Mole]

We can express anger by punching out with our arm and hand. But when we do this all we have to do is to unclench our fist and we are reaching out.

So we can see anger as a way of reaching out, as a way of reaching out defensively. So we are reaching out for something but we are afraid we won't get it. So we 'punch out' in our anger.

And of course when we don't get what we want we feel frustration. And frustration leads directly to the feeling of anger. So we have set up a vicious circle for ourselves that is self perpetuating.

And all this is compounded by the false hope that MBTI will help us understand one another and so give us what we need.

So together we have created a lovely vicious circle. And of course our first impulse is to ask how can we get out of it. But we can't get out of it because it is a double bind. And so the more we struggle the tighter we are bound.

And all addictions are a double bind. We are addicted exquisitely to each other and there is no way out.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

My impression is that often people are actually angry about social interactions in their personal lives, and tend to use MBTI to define why those conflicts are occurring, and then project those problems universally. People aren't always angry at "Fi users", but rather their mother who they have identified as using Fi. Or"Te users" make the person frustrated because they have identified that is what their employer is using to be bossy. Many of those interactions keep a person in a somewhat powerless position because they need their job, try to keep peace with the family, etc. By expressing that anger online, they have a way to vent with minimal consequences.

This might be a misconception on my part, but quite often online when you take a body of posts from any given poster, there is nothing close to consistency in terms of which function is represented. The clear boundaries lines between Fi, Fe, Ti, Te, or Ss or Ns are often the result of biased perception. The exact same text can be interpreted several ways, and the known type of the poster determines that interpretation.

I think that this virtual environment can also be a place where people can resolve the conflicts that occur in their personal lives. If you can come to tolerate online the cognitive function you identify with your real life adversary, then it might be possible to resolve the real conflict.

 

[Robert165]

I think we're all mad, even people completly ignorant of MBTI. We are geneticaly composed to deal with conflict and danger and now we live a realtively safe and benign existence. So now we have anger and existenital angst. I think it's really neccesary for an angry person to realize this and dissaociate themselves from this conflict driven imperative.

 

[Halla74]

I think the real questions is: Why are YOU so happy?

newwink

I don't know, but if Pfizer could put my mood in a pill casing, they'd make an awful lot of money.

I bug the shit out of some people with my evergleeful self, and others are thankful for it. I am concerned with neither, as I am just being me, and my motivations and actions are good, so needlessly interpreting others perceptions is of little benefit. I don't see what I have to gain from it.

Maybe I need this:

YouTube - FDA Approves Depressant Drug For The Annoyingly Cheerful

:yim_rolling_on_the_

I agree w you Halla about live and let live pretty much.

I realized this may just be me noticing this though.

It took a few minutes pondering why.

Fi seems to be pick up on negativity and I think as I scroll the threads I see and notice the negative comments and they stick with me more than the positive comments. This ties in nicely with the idea of Fi being filled with pain and sorrow on the "Fi is..." thread and the "Fi users, tell me the happy things..."thread.

Fi in NLP terms is an "away from" meta program:

"Away-From" Meta Program -- habitually, reflexively and unconsciously -- which automatically presents to their awareness something negative so they can move away from it, and it filters from their perception and thinking the positive which they would want -- if they perceived it.

NLP Meta Programs, by John David Hoag


So likely I weight the negative input and retain but don't always retain the positive.

That is interesting. I will ponder on that, seriously.

I dispose of negative stimuli by default. I am literally coated with "OPTIMIST TEFLON" as I am sincerely of the opinion that negativity accomplishes NOTHING, and I have a motherload of stuff to do all the time. So, got some negativity you wanna' dish out? ZING! I didn't hear it! Heeeeeey! Let's focus on something obscure and positive and re-direct you even if but for a moment, then I'll ask you about the real topic at hand agin in a minute. BINGO. 90% of the time that is all it takes to keep things in a positive flow.

I have literally shut meetings down where people get negative and pissy and distracted and start to whine about the most trivial of exceptional possibilities that have almost zero probability of occuring in real practice. I say "OK, we are diving head first into trenches of black nothingness and have no idea if stainless steel spikes of death are at the bottom of them or flesh eating monsters, so I am going to call a time out and ask everyone to regroup with me up here at the top of this trench, shine our Mag-Lites down into it, and start over." Most people are so completely shocked that they laugh, get over the fit they were in and move on. That works in the real world, but I have no idea how to keep people from getting into negative hell fits here.

My impression is that often people are actually angry about social interactions in their personal lives, and tend to use MBTI to define why those conflicts are occurring, and then project those problems universally. People aren't always angry at "Fi users", but rather their mother who they have identified as using Fi. Or"Te users" make the person frustrated because they have identified that is what their employer is using to be bossy. Many of those interactions keep a person in a somewhat powerless position because they need their job, try to keep peace with the family, etc. By expressing that anger online, they have a way to vent with minimal consequences.

This might be a misconception on my part, but quite often online when you take a body of posts from any given poster, there is nothing close to consistency in terms of which function is represented. The clear boundaries lines between Fi, Fe, Ti, Te, or Ss or Ns are often the result of biased perception. The exact same text can be interpreted several ways, and the known type of the poster determines that interpretation.

I think that this virtual environment can also be a place where people can resolve the conflicts that occur in their personal lives. If you can come to tolerate online the cognitive function you identify with your real life adversary, then it might be possible to resolve the real conflict.

That's an awesome post. Nice!

 

[sculpting]

That is interesting. I will ponder on that, seriously.

I dispose of negative stimuli by default. I am literally coated with "OPTIMIST TEFLON" as I am sincerely of the opinion that negativity accomplishes NOTHING, and I have a motherload of stuff to do all the time. So, got some negativity you wanna' dish out? ZING! I didn't hear it! Heeeeeey! Let's focus on something obscure and positive and re-direct you even if but for a moment, then I'll ask you about the real topic at hand agin in a minute. BINGO. 90% of the time that is all it takes to keep things in a positive flow.

I have literally shut meetings down where people get negative and pissy and distracted and start to whine about the most trivial of exceptional possibilities that have almost zero probability of occuring in real practice. I say "OK, we are diving head first into trenches of black nothingness and have no idea if stainless steel spikes of death are at the bottom of them or flesh eating monsters, so I am going to call a time out and ask everyone to regroup with me up here at the top of this trench, shine our Mag-Lites down into it, and start over." Most people are so completely shocked that they laugh, get over the fit they were in and move on. That works in the real world, but I have no idea how to keep people from getting into negative hell fits here.



That's an awesome post. Nice!

Agreed Toonia's post was awesome.

Halla-how do you evaluate the possibility of the negative things they bring up before dismissing?

This is very relevant as me and my ENTP have been haggling on exactly what you described for about a week. My EXTPs-especially the older men-seem to function in the "towards" model. The ENFPs and ISTJs I work with function in an "Away-mode". Main diff is ENFPs combine "Away from" with another NLP meta-program called "best case" while the ISTJs combine "away from" with "worst case".

So the ISTJs fear change while the ENFPs welcome change eagerly, but make everyone aware of the potholes in the road-thus appearing negative at times.

When I point out the potential potholes with my EXTPs, I get labeled as negative, however I just launched a product with a five year NPV of -$101,000. The potholes are very real.

I am sorting through my own patterns-which appear Fi/Fe related-and looking into the "towards" model more closely.

I am aiming to find a way to discuss the negative potential issues without coming across as negative to my eternal optimists-who I actually do adore!

 

[Mole]

The Purpose of Negativity

I am sincerely of the opinion that negativity accomplishes NOTHING...

Just up the road from me in our New Parliament House negativity accomplishes the limitation of power, everyday.

For our Parliament is based on liberal democracy and the limitation of power.

So we elect not only a Government but also a Loyal Opposition. And we do this so the Loyal Opposition will limit the power of the Government, and interestingly so that the Government will limit the power of the Loyal Opposition.

And we do this because we have discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. But there are those who do not or will not understand this and criticize our Parliament for its negativity. And the most common criticism is that the negativity of Parliament is childish.

This is an intuitive criticism, for power seeks intuitively to increase itself, but counter-intuitively liberal democracy seeks to limit power.

And those who intuitively call Parliament childish are also those who intuitively believe in astrology or MBTI.

So thank God we now have counter-intuitive astronomy and a counter-intuitive liberal democratic Parliament and understand the purpose of negativity.

 

[6.4]

i blame organised religion

 

[nomadic]

The more I learn and the more I watch others, I keep seeing the same frustrations arise across typological categories-specifically across the (TeFi)/(TiFe) divide, regardless of which function order predominates. Call it type bashing if you'd like. Here and IRL.

Rather than reaching a place of understanding and mutual forgiveness of the others' differences, understanding the diffs in the jungian functions seems to lead to a more venomous dislike of those who use the other function classes. I just see more and more frustration-hypersensitivity?

An example:Fi judges others actions on its own value set, why get angry at an Fi user for doing so? Instead point this out to them and then counter with why your function combination does not do so... An attempt at education?

The same could be said for Ti seemingly being "mean" to an Fi user, Te being bossy and dominating to an Fe user, or Fe feeling controlling to a Te user.

As a group we should be better than folks in the real world at forgiving and attempting to understand others who differ from us. Instead we seem to be an order of magnitude less forgiving.

Why is this?

Do we assume that once the other understands, they should be able to change?

Do we expect they will not keep behaving according to type-even once they understand the "flaws" of said type?

How much change can you expect from another type?

I think its probably cultural. Hopefully Obama can trickle down the chill Hawaiian culture on the US.

 

[Halla74]

Just up the road from me in our New Parliament House negativity accomplishes the limitation of power, everyday.

For our Parliament is based on liberal democracy and the limitation of power.

So we elect not only a Government but also a Loyal Opposition. And we do this so the Loyal Opposition will limit the power of the Government, and interestingly so that the Government will limit the power of the Loyal Opposition.

And we do this because we have discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely. But there are those who do not or will not understand this and criticize our Parliament for its negativity. And the most common criticism is that the negativity of Parliament is childish.

This is an intuitive criticism, for power seeks intuitively to increase itself, but counter-intuitively liberal democracy seeks to limit power.

And those who intuitively call Parliament childish are also those who intuitively believe in astrology or MBTI.

So thank God we now have counter-intuitive astronomy and a counter-intuitive liberal democratic Parliament and understand the purpose of negativity.

90% of negativity leads to bitching, malingering, and poor morale.

10% leads of negativity leads to objectivity via realistic and brutally honest assessment of undesirable yet probable circumstances.

To be an optimist in the face of conflict does not mean you are not a realist, or objective, and certainly does not mean that you are a yellow bellied politcally correct autocrat.