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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #81
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well I thought he was asking whether his perception of Fi as pretentious could be generalizable beyond his own experiences. And then when Fi users declared that they were not in fact pretentious, and that he was simply seeing what he wanted to see (or whatever personal motivation they ascribed to him), he retorted by saying that he wasn't going to take very seriously the claims of Fi users because they are "biased."
    Read through the thread before you start making those kinds of criticisms that you made above and in your previous posts on this thread. I never wrote off the insight that INFPs offered. In fact, I replied to Amargith's responses with curioisity and gratitude (and *shock*, she's an NFP!!).

    I began writing off Orange's posts because they were starting to take on overly defensive tone, and they were just annoying. I appreciated her first post a lot. I even repped her nicely for it. I didn't want this thread to turn into a raging battle of Tesla vs. The NFPs. I wanted to hear about other experiences, impersonal observations/judgments, and theories about how my perceptions might be backed or unbacked by a more general reality.

    I never said that I don't want the input of INFPs. However, I do appreciate input from other types as well, as the input of INFPs is not the end-all, be-all when it comes to critiquing my perception.

    And of course Fi users are going to start saying that they aren't prentious! Calling Fi pretentious is a complete insult to Fi's claims at being empathetic and skilled at analyzing emotions. I was expecting NFPs to respond this way; I wasn't writing their views off or "retorting" by saying that their opinions are biased and thus no good. I just am not going to be satisfied by their opinions alone.

  2. #82
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    And to all of you tard-wads that are arguing about whether the OP is "intellectual" or silly, pointless, cruel, hostile, posted purely to make INFPs vomit up their own livers, or posted for the sake of inquiry, here we go:

    I made the OP so as to get opinions on MY PERCEPTIONS of Fi and how flawed, biased, or backed by reality my perceptions are. I was never trying to argue whether Fi is inherently pretentious. That's a ridiculously subjective claim to make. I just wanted to discuss it and see what came of it. Of course, as Wonka stated, a lot of you NFPs completely corroborated my observation-based theories with your responses, but I'm still open to other insight.

    Again, I was simply discussing an observation that I had and trying to see if the observation could be generalized or was completely delusional on my part. The OP was supposed to be more inquisitive than anything else. Does it have to be "intellectual" to warrant discussion? Wtf does that mean anyway?

    I wanted inputs from strong Fi users as well as any and all other spectrums of Fi use (or lack thereof). I am not completely writing off NFPs' opinions because the NFPs are "biased." I am simply not going to be completely convinced by NFP opinions alone because this is a biased sampling pool, meaning that inputs from solely one type are not an accurate representation of reality. If you still don't know what I mean by that phrase, go ask your friendly neighborhood statistician and come back to this thread when you've found more tissues to soak up your snot and tears.

  3. #83
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The OP was supposed to be more inquisitive than anything else.
    A question mark at the end of the title may have made that a bit clearer
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  4. #84
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    A question mark at the end of the title may have made that a bit clearer
    Duly fucking noted. Believe me.

    And I thought there were enough question marks in the OP to make up for the lack of interrogative punctuation in the title.

  5. #85
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Perhaps Fi users hear another person's perspective and think in terms of how their own mind would manifest that perspective and automatically assume that the rest of the world would express it the same way, leading to flaws in their emotional analyses.
    I don't think Fi works that way. Fi is advanced empathy, whereas you have described projection, something that is often mistaken as empathy. Empathy is about understanding the distance between yourself and another person--the understanding that the other person is different, unique, has had their own life experiences, and should be respected for being exactly who they are.

    I thought the description (quoted below) from the Lenore Thomson exegesis wiki was rather nice--it's superficially quite similar to your description of projection, with a key difference. Your description says that the Fi-user's experience overrides another person's experience, when in fact it's kind of the opposite. The Fi-user's experience is the key (or perhaps first step) to bridging the distance between the Fi-user and the other person... but it will then be overriden by the other person's experience.

    ...developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way
    But yes, to deny someone's unique experience seems anti-Fi, which is why I'm unsure if these people, who might indeed be INFP/ENFP, are using their Fi with you. I've got this random theory that they're using their shadow Fe, but then it all gets convoluted in my mind and everything starts melting into one giant undefined mess.


    I see the value in Fi when it's used more realistically, but it seems to me like oftentimes it's just completely out of control.
    Could you let me know what you mean by 'oftentimes'? Is this on forums, where self-identified xNFPs are posting? Or is this in real life?

    One possible reason for out-of-control mind-reading is overidentification with a type description and the type's alleged super powers.. this usually settles down with time.



    ~ intermission ~


    There's also a possible factor that you don't like having your 7th function (the Trickster) being poked at...

    I've seen three ENTPs having this specific complaint--against people who think they know what the ENTP is thinking/feeling better than the ENTP themselves--though the accusation has been levelled at NFJs as well as NFPs.

    So you're definitely not alone in this feeling--that may be counted as validation. It doesn't exclude the possibility that you're all wrong, but yeah, it's nice to know others are in the same boat.

    (Edit: By "all wrong", I mean wrongly attributing the cause of the annoyance as Fe or Fi, not that you're wrong for thinking it's pretentious.)
    Last edited by sciski; 12-23-2009 at 12:33 AM. Reason: Clarifying at the end.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    To the OP - I think a key point to note is that whatever perception we have of other's functions is interpreted through our own function preferences (hence, I understood your clarification of asking whether your perception of Fi was valid or not).

    So, when it seems like Fi is 'ganging up' on you (your INFP and ISFP friends), and your Ti can't break through that wall.....Fi being subjective (like Ti), take the subject out of the equation.

    Apply that Fi-rationalization to an opposite situation where they are the receipient, so they have to now walk in the other's shoes (the other side's Fi), and ask them to explain how their original Fi stance gets justified.

    With Fi, it helps when I can take the person out of the personal, let them see their Fi from a bird's eye view.

    The more you challenge the Fi of the person, the stronger it will hold. Challenge Fi, given that it's applied to x, y, z scenario, not the person in particular. Cut that tie, if you can, if you really wanna understand the Fi.

    It might help in circumventing the Fi/Ti clashes.

  7. #87
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    I don't think Fi works that way. Fi is advanced empathy, whereas you have described projection, something that is often mistaken as empathy. Empathy is about understanding the distance between yourself and another person--the understanding that the other person is different, unique, has had their own life experiences, and should be respected for being exactly who they are.

    I thought the description (quoted below) from the Lenore Thomson exegesis wiki was rather nice--it's superficially quite similar to your description of projection, with a key difference. Your description says that the Fi-user's experience overrides another person's experience, when in fact it's kind of the opposite. The Fi-user's experience is the key (or perhaps first step) to bridging the distance between the Fi-user and the other person... but it will then be overriden by the other person's experience.
    Perhaps what you are describing is very healthy Fi, and I never meant to imply that Fi is an inherently terrible function. I think it's safe to say that some Fi users don't use it in the most optimal, mature, developed way (as can be said for any of the other functions as well).

    Maybe an underveloped manifestation of Fi would be the inability to separate your own personal emotional biases (brought on by personal experiences and values) from others and thus this "projection" that I described occurs. I have a very close INFP friend, and I see the kind of projection that I described on a fairly regular basis. If X upsets her, then she automatically assumes that when X happens to me, I will be also be upset. Even after I explain to her that we have different values so what upsets her doesn't necessarily upset me, she still has trouble convincing herself that my claims about my own emotions are true. I think it's really hard for her to separate her own emotions from a circumstance.


    Could you let me know what you mean by 'oftentimes'? Is this on forums, where self-identified xNFPs are posting? Or is this in real life?
    Both. Forums and with two of my NFP friends as well as with an ESFP and an ISFP irl.


    There's also a possible factor that you don't like having your 7th function (the Trickster) being poked at...

    I've seen three ENTPs having this specific complaint--against people who think they know what the ENTP is thinking/feeling better than the ENTP themselves--though the accusation has been levelled at NFJs as well as NFPs.
    QFT.

    Anyway I really appreciate your post. It was really great and very much along the lines of the responses I was looking for. Thanks.

  8. #88
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So, when it seems like Fi is 'ganging up' on you (your INFP and ISFP friends), and your Ti can't break through that wall.....Fi being subjective (like Ti), take the subject out of the equation.

    Apply that Fi-rationalization to an opposite situation where they are the receipient, so they have to now walk in the other's shoes (the other side's Fi), and ask them to explain how their original Fi stance gets justified.

    With Fi, it helps when I can take the person out of the personal, let them see their Fi from a bird's eye view.

    The more you challenge the Fi of the person, the stronger it will hold. Challenge Fi, given that it's applied to x, y, z scenario, not the person in particular. Cut that tie, if you can, if you really wanna understand the Fi.
    This sounds very good, but doesn't it require my own use of Fi? I'm not sure that I really know how to do that effectively. I'd probably just end up sounding like a mindless idiot. Also, I'm afraid that the Fi users will be like "AH HAH! So now you find my tactics beneficial!", and that'd just be a slap in the face that I can't handle.

    Perhaps I should keep a bouquet of daisies in my back pocket at all times and just whip that out whenever my FP friends start whining. Will that work you think?

  9. #89
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    I get this with NFPs quite often, it can be really annoying.

    They assume I'm feeling a certain way and proceed to tell me how I feel and why I act the way I do. They're usually quite off the mark and I don't even know how to reply to what they are saying. Most of it is really a projection of their own feelings in similar experiences and is rather unhelpful.

    Stop.

  10. #90

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    Same. It drives me crazy. Like the other day this ENFP came up to me and told me I was sad because my dog had AIDS. How the f**k would they know. My dog didn't have AIDS. I don't even have a dog! And a few weeks ago an INFP came up to me and told me I was sick of work. I was just having lunch. It's like they're everywhere and I never get a break from them.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

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