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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #71
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Are you implying that four-year-olds aren't particularly quick-witted? They seem to learn languages a hell of a lot better than I can.
    It's hard-wired in them at that age to learn language.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I agree. I'm not trying to argue that the OP's question was not scientific. I simply declared that it wasn't, for obvious reasons. The point I was trying to make was that the input of Fi users cannot be discounted (like he wants to) on the basis of their personal motivation and the anecdotal quality of their evidence, when the "inquiry" being undertaken is not scientific or intellectual (meaning, presenting an intellectual argument) in any sense.
    Maybe I'm reading a whole different motivation in the OP than you are, but, I couldn't see where the OP was trying to discount Fi users' input on the basis of their personal motivation or anecdotes [she asked that more than a certain type of Fi users {INFP} give input]....

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    And I appreciate your insight. A few INFPs' opinions on Fi are not going to be very convincing arguments though. I'm not implying that you are wrong about yourself. It'd be nice to hear insights, personal, anecdotal, or theoretical, that analyze my speculations about Fi. Not just Fi users' opinions about Fi. Regardless of how much I appreciate the INFP insight, it's a pretty biased sampling pool, if you ask me.
    The OP can correct me, but, I felt as if the question was asking if the OP's perception of Fi as pretentious is off, and if so why.......

    ....not whether Fi is pretentious or not.

    Meh.

  3. #73
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Those are some fine hairs you're splitting there.

    He wants to go from the specific to the general. We're not talking deductive analysis here, we're talking inductive theorizing. They're not using their anecdotes to build upon the theory, as much as browbeat him for even asking the question in the first place. An example of the former would be "you know, that's not been my experience. (inject anecdote). Maybe this is more of an issue of Y instead of X?"

    What would be your more refined qualification of a question as "intellectual"?
    Ooookay, the inductive/deductive distinction is irrelevant to our discussion. I am not critiquing the form of his arguments (mostly because there ARE NO ARGUMENTS), I'm saying that evidence which is anecdotal cannot be dismissed because it is anecdotal when there is no structured inquiry going on. And the distinction you are making between browbeating and relevant anecdotal evidence is based upon language use, not the content of the information they are presenting. And if language use counts as legitimate criteria for dismissing information, then that gives the Fi-people every right to dismiss the question because of the way in which it was asked (and the meanings that can be derived from the language that was used).
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  4. #74
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    It's hard-wired in them at that age to learn language.
    So it's hard-wired in them to take abstract concepts and rearrange them into something with meaning that other people recognize. Seems pretty intellectual to me.

  5. #75
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    So, I'm curious, do you get this experience with TJs as well as FPs? Because you're talking about the function Fi, which applies to them as well.
    Yeah, sure it's possible to experience this with other Fi users. I personally find it most in NFPs, and it just so happens that this forum has a lot of NFPs, so they are the ones that responded most promptly to this thread.

    However, Fi does apply to other types aside from NFPs. I actually didn't even gear the OP at NFPs. I said "Fi users." IxFPs have dominant Fi, so their insight is of course wanted, and I think Fi influences them the most, so it's safe to say that the kinds of consequences that I referenced in the OP may be most seen in IxFPs. However, that's not to say that other types with Fi wouldn't exhibit actions that may appear emotionally "pretentious" as well.

  6. #76
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Maybe I'm reading a whole different motivation in the OP than you are, but, I couldn't see where the OP was trying to discount Fi users' input on the basis of their personal motivation or anecdotes [she asked that more than a certain type of Fi users {INFP} give input]....



    The OP can correct me, but, I felt as if the question was asking if the OP's perception of Fi as pretentious is off, and if so why.......

    ....not whether Fi is pretentious or not.

    Meh.
    Yes, thank you for that. Your interpretation of the OP is spot-on. I just wish the Fi users coulds see that.

  7. #77
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Maybe I'm reading a whole different motivation in the OP than you are, but, I couldn't see where the OP was trying to discount Fi users' input on the basis of their personal motivation or anecdotes [she asked that more than a certain type of Fi users {INFP} give input]....

    The OP can correct me, but, I felt as if the question was asking if the OP's perception of Fi as pretentious is off, and if so why.......

    ....not whether Fi is pretentious or not.

    Meh.
    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    And I appreciate your insight. A few INFPs' opinions on Fi are not going to be very convincing arguments though. I'm not implying that you are wrong about yourself. It'd be nice to hear insights, personal, anecdotal, or theoretical, that analyze my speculations about Fi. Not just Fi users' opinions about Fi. Regardless of how much I appreciate the INFP insight, it's a pretty biased sampling pool, if you ask me.

    I'm not asking YOU to admit to anything. I'm not asking Fi users to admit to anything either. I'm asking for my perceptions to be critiqued.

    Well that's good then, and thank you for your help. But you do not represent all Fi users or all theories about Fi simply because you are an INFP.
    Well I thought he was asking whether his perception of Fi as pretentious could be generalizable beyond his own experiences. And then when Fi users declared that they were not in fact pretentious, and that he was simply seeing what he wanted to see (or whatever personal motivation they ascribed to him), he retorted by saying that he wasn't going to take very seriously the claims of Fi users because they are "biased."
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  8. #78
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Ooookay, the inductive/deductive distinction is irrelevant to our discussion. I am not critiquing the form of his arguments (mostly because there ARE NO ARGUMENTS), I'm saying that evidence which is anecdotal cannot be dismissed because it is anecdotal when there is no structured inquiry going on. And the distinction you are making between browbeating and relevant anecdotal evidence is based upon language use, not the content of the information they are presenting. And if language use counts as legitimate criteria for dismissing information, then that gives the Fi-people every right to dismiss the question because of the way in which it was asked (and the meanings that can be derived from the language that was used).
    Nice and logical, but you're missing the big picture - first of all, he wasn't formally arguing a position, just like you said. Second, the likelihood of the other person accepting anecdotal information does not simply rely on the formality of the discussion; if anything, by laying out his grievances he has already stated that he will not accept any of that line of reasoning as persuasive. So the burden of persuasion is on the other person to demonstrate the rationale of the discussed actions collaterally. Finally, even if what you say about language is logically sound, disagreeing in such a fashion does nothing but confirm the other person's perceptions, undermining one's entire argument.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Well I thought he was asking whether his perception of Fi as pretentious could be generalizable beyond his own experiences. And then when Fi users declared that they were not in fact pretentious, and that he was simply seeing what he wanted to see (or whatever personal motivation they ascribed to him), he retorted by saying that he wasn't going to take very seriously the claims of Fi users because they are "biased."
    The biased comment, I think, was referring to, a 'general biased sampling pool' ( at the scientific lingo) of describing perception(s) of Fi, because it's mostly one type, INFP, responding (hence, the bias, rather than a representative sample of Fi-users)...not that Fi users are biased because they're Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Regardless of how much I appreciate the INFP insight, it's a pretty biased sampling pool, if you ask me.


    I'm not asking YOU to admit to anything. I'm not asking Fi users to admit to anything either. I'm asking for my perceptions to be critiqued.


    Well that's good then, and thank you for your help. But you do not represent all Fi users or all theories about Fi simply because you are an INFP.


    But, I must say, I think it was onemoretime [or proteanmix] (??) who brought up the point, that the nature of such topics ('negative' slant) are naturally going to raise defensiveness, so any kind of honest inquiry...I don't see it happening.

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