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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #61
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Unfortunately, a lot of posts in this thread confirmed some of the observations about NFPs taking things the wrong way---which kind of makes me wonder if Tesla's secondary motive was to be a smart-ass and demonstrate how NFPs take things the wrong way!!!! (ime, this seems to be a typical secondary motive of ENTPs!!!! )

    If that's the case, then some of you should have used your intuition and avoided falling into the trap!

    Ahhhhhhhhhh..........

    Damn you ENTPs!
    I think you give him (or her, I don't know) too much credit. The heatedness of his responses afterward indicate that he either (1) did not expect that reaction and took offense, or (2) DID expect that reaction, but not so much to demonstrate anything about NFs, but rather to be able to fend off disagreement from the subjects themselves by deploying the "waaah, NF personal values are muddling my extremely intellectual arguments again!!!" device.

    There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING at all intellectual, in any sense, about the OP. Not that this is a bad thing- most of the threads on this board involve discussions involving matters of daily-living and relationships. But don't call it "intellectual" when it is not. I see no arguments here whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Dude, go talk to SimulatedWorld, he bears the battle scars, although, he asked for it, with his style of inquiry, like ya do....
    Hmmm, here we go again with this language of detached inquiry (and this is not aimed at you, Qre:us, I'm just using your post as an illustration for my interpretation of what is going on here.) There is nothing different about the OP's question than any other question (save the "can you help me with..." questions and some of the sillier philosophical "inquiries") that gets asked on this board by any other member, NT or not. But it seems like the fact that he has ENTP under his name means that we must automatically assume that he is "detached" and engaging in some sort of scientific inquiry. Yet, nothing about the form, content, or tone of the OP indicates anything remotely inquiry-like, in the scientific sense. Therefore, it should not be granted special privileges (i.e., be given leeway with language use and free from questions of personal motivation) simply because the person asking is an NT.

    That's like saying that we should not question the motivations of scientists simply because they are scientists (and therefore always engage in detached, unbiased inquiry.)
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  2. #62
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Uh oh, this thread just got a Ti beat down. :1377:

  3. #63
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think you give him (or her, I don't know) too much credit. The heatedness of his responses afterward indicate that he either (1) did not expect that reaction and took offense, or (2) DID expect that reaction, and so was eager to assign the "waaah, NF personal values are muddling my extremely intellectual arguments again!!!" device.

    There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING at all intellectual, in any sense, about the OP. Not that this is a bad thing- most of the threads on this board involve discussions involving matters of daily-living and relationships. But don't call it "intellectual" when it is not. I see no arguments here whatsoever.
    Sure there is. "Why do people act the way they do" is an inherently intellectual question. That this question seemingly arose out of frustration doesn't take away from its validity.

  4. #64
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sure there is. "Why do people act the way they do" is an inherently intellectual question. That this question seemingly arose out of frustration doesn't take away from its validity.
    Validity is a property of an argument, not an inquiry. But I take it you mean validity in the common meaning. Even so, I never said he didn't have a right to ask the question, or that it was a bad one. All I'm saying is that you cannot disqualify the input of others on the basis that their information is anecdotal (which, if you take the implication further, means that it is not scientifically valid evidence) and personal when the question being asked was anecdotal and personal, and not some sort of scientific inquiry. I just found that people are defending him against the onslaught of Fi detractors on the basis that he was simply detachedly inquiring (for no other reason than that he has an NT under his avatar), and they therefore should not introduce their unscientific, personal mess to the discussion because it is not pertinent (when it very clearly is.)

    And I think your definition of intellectual is too inclusive.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Hmmm, here we go again with this language of detached inquiry (and this is not aimed at you, Qre:us, I'm just using your post as an illustration for my interpretation of what is going on here.) There is nothing different about the OP's question than any other question (save the "can you help me with..." questions) that gets asked on this board by any other member, NT or not. But it seems like the fact that he has ENTP under his name means that we must automatically assume that he is "detached" and engaging in some sort of scientific inquiry. Yet, nothing about the form, content, or tone of the OP indicates anything remotely inquiry-like, in the scientific sense. Therefore, it should not be granted special privileges (i.e., be given leeway with language use and free from questions of personal motivation) simply because the person asking is an NT.

    That's like saying that we should not question the motivations of scientists simply because they are scientists (and therefore always engage in detached, unbiased inquiry.)
    I'd go as far as to say that any question about personality quirks that causes interpersonal conflict cannot be purely detached or scientific, by default, as an inquiry. Thus, it shouldn't ever be expected to be, either.

    So any attempt at clarifying whether someone is really detached or failed to be detached (but others think they are cuz of their type, etc) is irrelevant. As detached as can be...perhaps. That's also subjective.

    The real question is: is the aim of such OPs to offend more than it is to understand? (again, oh, so subjective)

    Point is, whether it's an ENTP or an ISFJ asking the question, by the very nature of the question, the point of evaluating the merit of detachment is moot. See title of thread - usage of adjective to define Fi.

    The topic of inquiry itself is not a detached inquiry...so, picking hairs about whether the OP achieved/did not achieve/aimed to be/did not aim to be.... detached, scientific, etc...is kinda like chasing one's own tail (if one had a tail, of course ).

  6. #66
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sure there is. "Why do people act the way they do" is an inherently intellectual question. That this question seemingly arose out of frustration doesn't take away from its validity.
    4-year-olds also ask "why do people act the way they do", but it's not quite intellectualism.

  7. #67
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Validity is a property of an argument, not an inquiry. But I take it you mean validity in the common meaning. Even so, I never said he didn't have a right to ask the question, or that it was a bad one. All I'm saying is that you cannot disqualify the input of others on the basis that their information is anecdotal (which, if you take the implication further, means that it is not scientifically valid evidence) and personal when the question being asked was anecdotal and personal, and not some sort of scientific inquiry. I just found that people are defending him against the onslaught of Fi detractors on the basis that he was simply detachedly inquiring, and they therefore should not introduce their unscientific, personal mess to the discussion because it is not pertinent (when it very clearly is.)
    Those are some fine hairs you're splitting there.

    He wants to go from the specific to the general. We're not talking deductive analysis here, we're talking inductive theorizing. They're not using their anecdotes to build upon the theory, as much as browbeat him for even asking the question in the first place. An example of the former would be "you know, that's not been my experience. (inject anecdote). Maybe this is more of an issue of Y instead of X?"

    What would be your more refined qualification of a question as "intellectual"?

  8. #68
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    4-year-olds also ask "why do people act the way they do", but it's not quite intellectualism.
    Are you implying that four-year-olds aren't particularly quick-witted? They seem to learn languages a hell of a lot better than I can.

  9. #69
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'd go as far as to say that any question about personality quirks that causes interpersonal conflict cannot be purely detached or scientific, by default, as an inquiry. Thus, it shouldn't ever be expected to be, either.

    So any attempt at clarifying whether someone is really detached or failed to be detached (but others think they are cuz of their type, etc) is irrelevant. As detached as can be...perhaps. That's also subjective.

    The real question is: is the aim of such OPs to offend more than it is to understand? (again, oh, so subjective)

    Point is, whether it's an ENTP or an ISFJ asking the question, by the very nature of the question, the point of evaluating the merit of detachment is moot. See title of thread - usage of adjective to define Fi.

    The inquiry itself is not a detached inquiry...so, picking hairs about whether the OP achieved/did not achieve/aimed to be/did not aim to be.... detached, scientific, etc...is kinda like chasing one's own tail (if one had a tail, of course ).
    I agree. I'm not trying to argue that the OP's question was not scientific. I simply declared that it wasn't, for obvious reasons. The point I was trying to make was that the input of Fi users cannot be discounted (like he wants to) on the basis of their personal motivation and the anecdotal quality of their evidence, when the "inquiry" being undertaken is not scientific or intellectual (meaning, presenting an intellectual argument) in any sense.
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  10. #70
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Just a little note to whoever it applies to:

    Giving the benefit of the doubt is not the same as being naive or making assumptions.

    Often, it involves a very rational calculation of probabilities.
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