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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #51
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The first is the hardest, and mentionned already: being emotionally stable yourself and able to detach.Second is asking questions to verify your reading, making sure you're in sync with the person, potentially recapping what's going on to make sure you got it right.
    I think this second prerequisite is perhaps one of the huge problems that causes Fi to appear so presumptious. I've seen Fi users make premature claims about my own emotions without even explicitly asking me how I feel. It seems like usually once they ask, they believe me (until I do another thing that makes me appear "upset"), so it's good that I get through to them at least for a bit.

    INFPs are Third is knowing the backstory and applying it to your analysis (aka, if a person is feeling anger, the backstory will tell you how that will make them react, whereas you as the interpreter might do something else in that situation)
    I think some times the "backstory" is taken with more weight than it may hold to the present situation though. It's not always that important. That might be another reason for the disagreements.

    , fourth is using the bodylanguage of the person to verify your reading, and back up the questions, steer them. Together, they will often give you a very acurate pic of what's happening.
    I'd say that's why NFPs come across as so pretentious to NTPs though. NTPs don't really think about using body language to express their feelings, and for me, oftentimes my body language is not a manifestation of my internal thoughts. It gets misinterpretted though, and thus the annoyance ensues.

    What can you do? Don't get defensive
    Much like ENTPs wanna know what's inside your head and logically verify everything and question stuff (which to us feels like you're not believing us, questionning our morals and values and makes us go all porcupine on ya and btw makes us paranoid and read into your emotions to see wtf is wrong with you that you feel like you need to torture us ), we're the same on feelings.
    To the bolded: I did not know this is how an NFP would feel about logical analysis! Thank you for that.

    When I analyze and ask questions, it's not necessarily because I'm doubtful. I just like to know as much about a system as possible, so I ask questions and analyze. It's hard for Ti to be sure of something without having all the necessary information. It's a huge pitfall with Ti, imo, but we can't really help it.

    We wanna know what's going on in your soul. And ENTPs are usually reluctant to share that.
    ENTPs don't have souls, silly.

    When you start getting defensive, we feel, much like yourself in a Ti situation, that you're hiding something..so we'll start digging. If you don't cooperate= no information= guessing is the only option= likely to be very inaccurate. It's pretty much what you guys do to get ideas out of people's heads and verify them. We do the same on the emotional level. Realize that. It helps. We're not trying to emotionally rape you, or tell you how you feel. We want you to tell us. If you don't however, we'll guess.
    That's fair. I think that NTPs just don't hold as much weight with emotions as NFPs though, so we just don't really feel the need to talk about them and analyze them as much as you guys do. That's why we don't, not because we are necessarily "hiding something."

    And guessing is fair. Just so long as you are willing to accept the fact that your guesses are not always going to be completely spot-on.

    Also, in our defense....T's seem to often not realize that they *are* in fact emoting. If you vibe frustration and anger at us because you're getting frustrated at not finding the answer you seek, often it's misinterpreted by us as..omg, she's frustrated and angry at me..but why??? Then we ask...and you tell us that there's no anger or frustration. We get confused coz we clearly see it, and try to point it out, whereas to you that anger and frustration is minimal and irrelevant (so I've been told).
    I understand this perspective. I just wish that it was easier for Fi users to understand that anger/frustration over a specific system is not the same thing as general anger/unhappiness. I may get frustrated with not knowing something in the moment, but it doesn't affect my overall emotional state outside of the system that's confusing me.

    I really liked the insight you gave here (and the 4 prereqs really appeal to my Ti ). I didn't completely understand that Fi users felt this way. I just wish there was some effective way for Fi/Ti so solve their problems through communication. It's frustrating because NFPs can be so fun and bubbly for a while, but it seems like shit inevitably hits the fan at some point, and I don't like it when that happens.

  2. #52
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Tesla, dearest, as already been noted this thread was virtually fated to fail from start.

    As a battle-scarred defender of Fe I'm all too familiar with the route topics such as these take. I'm not going to damn Fi one way or another, because I've seen the same accusations hurled at Fe. I'm trying to think of how you could have phrased your OP to not raise hackles but...
    Yeah, that'd be nice to figure a more tactful way of wording it. Us ENTPs aren't always so great with tact. I really didn't mean to cause offense or provoke such strong Fi defenses.

    I'm sure you realize the hierarchy of functions here on the forum. Perhaps if you had started this topic about Si the thread wouldn't have gotten so contentious so quickly. What I'm saying is you're stepping on hallowed cognitive function ground. You really can't expect to have any measured and critical discussion about the negatives--be they real or imagined--about any functions that are more highly favored here.
    I wish I could expect that though :-/

    Also I notice that most people will quickly say "I don't do that!" and then other will say "I don't think you[person who uses said function] are like that!" There's no way to know for sure if someone does or doesn't have the traits and behaviors described in any OP started like this one. They may or may not...you're at the mercy of self-report and a person's ability to objectively look at themselves which at best ALL humans are running at 50%.
    I don't think self-report is the only way to analyze the OP though. I think we could talk about theoretical implications of the functions and how these would theoretically be manifested in reality in their negative and positive forms.


    I do think the OP could've been worded a bit more neutrally though. Sorry chica!
    I don't think I would have gotten my point across had I chosen more "neutral" words (or at least there's no neutral words in my normal vocab repertoire that would have sufficed). Perhaps I should have thought more about how the Fi users would take it though.

    I wouldn't take the OP personally had it been about the negative consequences of Ti or Ne, but it's hard to escape the realms of your own perspective and enter into a new one, especially when the new one is so discordant with your own that you can't really even call it an "opposite."

    Le sigh...

  3. #53
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think the other thing to consider is that communication requires cooperation on both sides. If you are being continually misinterpreted by a given type, you might want to consider how you are saying what you are saying.

    I think some thinkers tend to assume that everything they say is emotionally neutral unless explicitly otherwise. What they don't realize is that every word choice, mannerism and facial expression carries some emotional overtones.
    I think mannerisms carry emotional overtones only according to societal standards. These societal standards may just cause mannerisms to be misinterpretted by people who value judging the emotional meaning behind actions even when there is no intended emotional meaning.

    That being said, perhaps it'd be best if we all realize that our actions may be interpretted as "emotional overtones" by some people and not by others and change our mode of actions depending on the circumstances.


    It sounds like the OP is assuming the problem is mostly on the listener's side. I don't think it's always that simple.
    Yeah I did blame it on the listener's side, as the listener is the one doing the misinterpretting. However, I can see the value in avoiding such actions that are so often misinterpreted.

    I also find that during NT-style debates, people are sometimes more emotionally invested than they'd like to admit. They may not be taking the topic of the debate personally, but there is a sporting aggression and one-up-manship that goes on. Sometimes the aggressive and angry tone does represent real emotion... it's just more about winning and being proven right/smarter rather than the topic at hand. That doesn't mean it's not real emotion and that it's not being communicated.
    I don't know if I agree with this. There often really is no emotional investment, but NFs can't seem to figure that out because that just completely does not fit in to their own values and perspective.

    So it's possible (I don't know, since I wasn't there) that the INFPs in question are correctly picking up anger and aggression, it's just not personal in the same way it would be coming from an INFP.
    Perhaps? Maybe Fi just gets more bothered by apparent anger/aggression than other functions though.

    I even find the original OP to be somewhat aggressive and confrontational in the NT "stir-the-pot and see what happens" kind of way. Seems kind of ironic that tesla was using that style (or so it appeared to me) when asking INFPs about it.
    I don't really think I was explicitly asking INFPs about anything. I wanted anybody's opinions.

    And I wasn't trying to "stir-the-pot" (really I wasn't!). I'd like to know how I can avoid doing that with Fi users. Srsly.

  4. #54
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    LEAVE NFPs ALONE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I don't really think I was explicitly asking INFPs about anything. I wanted anybody's opinions.

    And I wasn't trying to "stir-the-pot" (really I wasn't!). I'd like to know how I can avoid doing that with Fi users. Srsly.
    So, I'm curious, do you get this experience with TJs as well as FPs? Because you're talking about the function Fi, which applies to them as well.

  6. #56
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I think mannerisms carry emotional overtones only according to societal standards. These societal standards may just cause mannerisms to be misinterpretted by people who value judging the emotional meaning behind actions even when there is no intended emotional meaning.

    That being said, perhaps it'd be best if we all realize that our actions may be interpretted as "emotional overtones" by some people and not by others and change our mode of actions depending on the circumstances.
    I'd generally agree with this, although clearly there are some mannerisms which seem to inherently, cross-culturally carry emotional content (there are good sociology studies on such).

    And I share your frustration in the context of Fe vs Fi. If I opt out of attending a graduation because I'd rather spend personal time with that person at a later date, I'm really not saying "I don't care." But to some Fe users, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't like that fact, but it pays to keep it in mind. Sometimes, you can't say nothing and anything you do has some meaning.


    Yeah I did blame it on the listener's side, as the listener is the one doing the misinterpretting. However, I can see the value in avoiding such actions that are so often misinterpreted.
    Same on my side. I've found that my INFP tendency to soften statements with "I feel" and "it seems to me that" can be read as me being uncertain in technical contexts. I've also had to learn to be much more direct about things at work, because some people take things at face value and ignore all indirection (hard as that is for me to imagine).


    I don't know if I agree with this. There often really is no emotional investment, but NFs can't seem to figure that out because that just completely does not fit in to their own values and perspective.
    Maybe it's a computer geek thing. My coworkers are often sparring for the top-dog/best-informed/smartest-geek. There's a kind of dynamic that goes on that reminds me of people playing ping pong or a trash-talking while dueling in a video game. It's definitely aggressive and in one's face. There's clearly some investment in the whole thing (they WANT to be proven right/best/correct), but it's not personal in an INFP way.


    Perhaps? Maybe Fi just gets more bothered by apparent anger/aggression than other functions though.
    I think it's true that Fi-doms tend to be the most personally bothered by conflict. Fe users are also bothered by conflict, but tend to see it more as a threat to group well-being (which they tend to value). Also, Fe users can tend to come down hard if they feel the conflict creators aren't abiding by the social contracts.

    Conflict about unimportant matters goes against most Fi's value systems (which tend to emphasize personal autonomy and respect for opinions). Many NFPs (especially INFPs) tend to only argue about the truly important, so there's always emotional investment about those central values.

    I don't really think I was explicitly asking INFPs about anything. I wanted anybody's opinions.
    Huh... seemed like "Why do you Fi users do this?" and then you said NFJs didn't have that issue (not primary Fi users, anyway), and neither did SFPs. That leaves INFP as the only Fi-doms remaining. (Okay, you were asking ENFPs too, I admit.)


    And I wasn't trying to "stir-the-pot" (really I wasn't!). I'd like to know how I can avoid doing that with Fi users. Srsly.
    Heh, if you like I can go through your initial post and pick it apart for emotional content and connotations if that would be helpful. You did say you couldn't have chosen more neutral words and gotten your point across, which sounds like you were aware of the emotional content in this case.

    At any rate, I'm not personally offended by any of this. I do understand (first-hand) the INFP reaction to intense debating as angry conflict. I think NFPs can learn to tolerate that style of debate over time, and NTs can help by clearly stating that they aren't upset and it's not personal. Also keeping an eye on the emotional content of your body language and word choice can help (if you care enough to do so).

    This seems like a pretty fundamental type misunderstanding to me, where each side misinterprets the other's actions based on how they would respond personally. NFPs think you are angry, and you think they are being arrogant for thinking such. We can keep in mind that arguing ? angry (for NTs, anyway), and you can keep in mind that we are getting repeated cues that you ARE angry/upset. It takes some desensitization for NFPs not to react to that, and to understand that in your mind it's all good free-wheeling fun.

  7. #57
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    I don't really think I was explicitly asking INFPs about anything. I wanted anybody's opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Why do you Fi users do this? Or is this not an Fi thing and just something I made up in my head?
    Emphasis mine. While you asked for anyone's opinions, you specifically asked Fi users 'why' they behave a certain way and/or whether this was a misperception on your part.

    And I appreciate your insight. A few INFPs' opinions on Fi are not going to be very convincing arguments though. I'm not implying that you are wrong about yourself. It'd be nice to hear insights, personal, anecdotal, or theoretical, that analyze my speculations about Fi. Not just Fi users' opinions about Fi. Regardless of how much I appreciate the INFP insight, it's a pretty biased sampling pool, if you ask me.
    See above.

    I'd love to hear a convincing argument that goes against my previous notions regarding Fi, and I'd have no qualms with accepting the fact that my perceptions do not hold ground in a broader reality. It hasn't happened yet though.
    Ajblaise and Orangey had already provided two 'unbiased' (ie non-Fi) typological explanations of why your assumptions might be questioned.

    I don't think self-report is the only way to analyze the OP though. I think we could talk about theoretical implications of the functions and how these would theoretically be manifested in reality in their negative and positive forms.
    I was planning on adding some anecdotal evidence of my own, but reading the entire thread I'm sure that would be unhelpful. I'm not familiar enough with typology or the functions yet to have a good theoretical grasp of Fi and the behavior of NFPs. I think if your OP (and the hypothesis therein) had been more focused on theory instead of the personal experiences you had had with 'obnoxious', 'annoying' and 'pretentious' Fi-using NFPs, the response may have been more theory-based and productive from your own perspective, instead of mostly anecdotal and personalized.
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  8. #58
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    I think that things would be a lot simpler if people would give Teslashock the benefit of the doubt that, as an ENTP, the motive for the OP was mostly intellectual curiosity.

    Unfortunately, a lot of posts in this thread confirmed some of the observations about NFPs taking things the wrong way---which kind of makes me wonder if Tesla's secondary motive was to be a smart-ass and demonstrate how NFPs take things the wrong way!!!! (ime, this seems to be a typical secondary motive of ENTPs!!!! )

    If that's the case, then some of you should have used your intuition and avoided falling into the trap!

    Ahhhhhhhhhh..........

    Damn you ENTPs!
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane View Post
    Ajblaise and Orangey had already provided two 'unbiased' (ie non-Fi) typological explanations of why your assumptions might be questioned.
    Yeah, and I think the fact that he/she (?) seems to have missed both of our posts while still saying that he wants outside criticism makes it seem like rhetorical fluff to make himself look more objective. That said, he could have just missed them in the heat of battle with the INFPs, though that still says a lot about his real priorities for the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane View Post
    I was planning on adding some anecdotal evidence of my own, but reading the entire thread I'm sure that would be unhelpful. I'm not familiar enough with typology or the functions yet to have a good theoretical grasp of Fi and the behavior of NFPs. I think if your OP (and the hypothesis therein) had been more focused on theory instead of the personal experiences you had had with 'obnoxious', 'annoying' and 'pretentious' Fi-using NFPs, the response may have been more theory-based and productive from your own perspective, instead of mostly anecdotal and personalized.
    I also agree that there is significant inconsistency in presenting an anecdote and asking for feedback on it while denying the relevance of other's anecdotes for this purpose. The issue becomes even more transparent when you take into account the fact that the anecdotes he is refusing are the ones coming from Fi users themselves. If he wanted to discuss theory he should have presented a theoretical argument instead of personal experience.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Prententious Fi.....
    [....]
    Dude, go talk to SimulatedWorld, he bears the battle scars, although, he asked for it, with his style of inquiry, like ya do....

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