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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #441
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    ummm... not to sound like I'm telling mods/everyone else what to do, but doesn't most of this stuff belong in it's own special little thread somewhere instead of changing the topic of the origional thread?

    and, your posts are all too long

    At that though- I think that the idea that a person only really uses 4 functions is bullshit- there are 8 functions in use and all of them have some effect on us- more or less depending on their strengths and weaknesses

    I'd also define a type based on their two strongest functions as opposed to a sequence of 4, because if we did that honestly, there would be very few people of any of the 16 types! (I'm Ne, Ti, Se, Te, Fe, Ni, Si, Fi.... not the conventional Ne, Ti, Fe, Si and I still exist!)

    Just because you lack strong feeling functions doesn't mean that you're unethical or cruel in the least- I'm nice because it gets me what I want... it's just easier that way. Learned behavior over time though, I was an evil scheming little bitch when younger
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #442
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Again, the key to properly understanding the eight functions is to go back to (start with) four; --but without the "attitudes" (orientations). i/e orientation is really a preference of the ego, not the functions. This was Jung's original "four function" concept, though I have seen the claim that Jung later modified it so that the orientation is fixed to the function.
    The dominant function is merely used in the preferred dominant attitude. The other three then follow suit in an alternating order (aux--opposite attitude, tertiary--same attitude, inferior--opposite attitude.

    Once you understand it as the ego setting the orientation, it becomes easier to see how that same ego could switch the orientation of the functions at times, for various reasons. This discussion has the "eight functions" as these monolithic solid entities that cannot all "coexist" with each other, but the functions are not entities; the ego is, and the functions are only utilities of the ego. So what you're saying is like saying if I normally use a hammer to drive nails, I can't ever use it to remove them. (i.e the other side of the head). Then, you make them into two separate tools; one to drive nails, and the other to remove them, and you can only use one.
    So the ego will tend to prefer a particular orientation for a particular function, but can switch it, especially under stress, when the preferred combination is not solving the problem.
    the psychoanalytic project is how jung discovered the cognitive functions, but i think many people on this site re-interpret the cognitive functions into a different context.

    i think the enneagram is better for psychoanalysis. i'd use the beebe model as a bit of a bridge to the enneagram, but that bridge is the weakest element in connecting cognition to the ego complex. understanding the correlations between enneatypes and mb types/cognitive functions is the most undefined grey area present in typology.

    i think it's possible to see the cognitive functions as physical processes, actual brain pathways. nowadays it's more interesting, in my mind, to re-interpret the cognitive functions in a cognitive context. cognitive psychology and cognitive science, during jung's time, didn't exist. now they do, and cogsci in particular, is home to the most interesting research into intelligence, the mind, etc. it's the best academic site with the most interesting intersections.

    i find that what jung ultimately discovered was less a perfect psychoanalytic theory (his was ok), and more of a developmental theory of human consciousness, information processing, etc. this is what i find most usable from jung's work. that this gives birth to a specific range of psychoanalytic approaches, defense mechanisms/blind spots, ego complexes, etc makes sense, but that connection is still in progress as far as theory goes. and those questions emerge/are formulated in other places/discourses as well.

    thinking of the cognitive functions as brain pathways leads in a different direction than thinking about them as an ego complex. where you have like aerobic and anaerobic mode, where you flip a switch and live in your own shadow consciousness, where the orientation of the functions reverses direction completely. if that were the case, it would seem like some strange version of schizophrenia, bc nothing would be mapped out or learned in those brain pathways, and no instincts would be developed, and you would have no way of framing experience, finding meaning, or sorting information.

  3. #443

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Glorifying one of your functions as the key to it? That's not what's going on here.

    We're just trying to explain to you that all T's have F. Plus, everything that I've bolded is you describing Te, not Fi. No one said ENTJs can't love or care for people. Who the hell claimed such a thing? Most - if not all - people have the ability to love. Who ever said that ENTJs in general are insincere? Certainly not me and I didn't see Sim doing it either. He said that a person who "cared" for others simply as a means to an end wouldn't actually be empathetic or moral. No one ever singled out ENTJs.

    I, for one, was challenging the notion that ENTJs are inherently, as a type, more caring or empathetic than NFs. That's all. I can't think of an ENTJ in particular that I dislike, for the record.
    It's a consequence of the theory you are floating. I get sim missing it, was surprised you were though. I've been saying the same thing every post, and it is a reply to what was put forward. Ethics, empathy and emotions don't require certain functions to consider. I'm still not sure what planet either of you are on or how a means of processing information excludes focus on certain topics. I can see some approaches correlate better with the focus on these topics, but it is not what was put forward. The argument put forward just needs one exception or one minuscule piece of doubt because someone decided to state it as an absolute. If it happens once for any reason, theory=dead.

    To add to that, I was saying ENTJs do consider emotions without resorting to their F. I consider the details of projects without using my Si. To put it simply, the idea that these things can't be understood by T style thinking is as stupid as the idea that logic can not be understood by F style thinking. It has nothing to do with having more functions, I've always thought the idea came from a complete misunderstanding of the way we think. You've simplified these things to simple descriptions, built a model from them, and assumed because it makes sense it is right.
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  4. #444
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Suppose. I don't see my approach as much different. I just see stuff will happen if I do stuff, so don't do stuff. It's really no less logical. It just involves a different object.
    Right, it's not less logical; it's just based externally. You are ENFP if I recall correctly, right? Te fits there.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #445
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Can I just ask a small question? It's on topic.
    Would it be better if us Fi-doms asked you how you felt, or would that still be interperted being told how you felt?
    Or it would it be interpted as needing reassurrance?
    Curious.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  6. #446
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    the psychoanalytic project is how jung discovered the cognitive functions, but i think many people on this site re-interpret the cognitive functions into a different context.

    i think the enneagram is better for psychoanalysis. i'd use the beebe model as a bit of a bridge to the enneagram, but that bridge is the weakest element in connecting cognition to the ego complex. understanding the correlations between enneatypes and mb types/cognitive functions is the most undefined grey area present in typology.
    I think this one here is the best: Enneagram - read free online

    I also think a better correlation would be made by allowing stacking of different types along the instinctual variants. sp might then fit the Keirseyan groupings, while so and to some extent sx might be Interaction Style.
    i think it's possible to see the cognitive functions as physical processes, actual brain pathways. nowadays it's more interesting, in my mind, to re-interpret the cognitive functions in a cognitive context. cognitive psychology and cognitive science, during jung's time, didn't exist. now they do, and cogsci in particular, is home to the most interesting research into intelligence, the mind, etc. it's the best academic site with the most interesting intersections.

    thinking of the cognitive functions as brain pathways leads in a different direction than thinking about them as an ego complex. where you have like aerobic and anaerobic mode, where you flip a switch and live in your own shadow consciousness, where the orientation of the functions reverses direction completely. if that were the case, it would seem like some strange version of schizophrenia, bc nothing would be mapped out or learned in those brain pathways, and no instincts would be developed, and you would have no way of framing experience, finding meaning, or sorting information.
    I don't think of functions as the complex, but rather the functions as utilities of the complexes.
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  7. #447
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Can I just ask a small question? It's on topic.
    Would it be better if us Fi-doms asked you how you felt, or would that still be interperted being told how you felt?
    Or it would it be interpted as needing reassurrance?
    Curious.
    Personally, I'd much prefer being asked how I feel to having my feelings dictated to me by someone who doesn't know me.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #448
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Personally, I'd much prefer being asked how I feel to having my feelings dictated to me by someone who doesn't know me.
    What if I asked you, am I supposed to take that statement at face value? or, is there a barb in that statement referencing our previous encounters on this forum?
    BTW, this is a genuine question, not intending to inflame at all.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  9. #449
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    What if I asked you, am I supposed to take that statement at face value? or, is there a barb in that statement referencing our previous encounters on this forum?
    BTW, this is a genuine question, not intending to inflame at all.
    You are supposed to take it at face value.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    To put it simply, the idea that these things can't be understood by T style thinking is as stupid as the idea that logic can not be understood by F style thinking.
    I never said that. You are completely missing my point, and I'm not sure how after I stated in my last response that most (if not all) people have the ability to love and care for others, and that has nothing to do with T or F.

    You just don't believe in functions. That's your prerogative.

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