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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I suppose it could, but it would be totally faked and used only for the purpose of deceiving people. Maybe these people exist but are just sociopaths--they usually follow rules and laws but only for fear of punishment. They have no inherent belief in any kind of morality beyond self-preservation, internal or external.

    One might imitate others' moral behavior in an attempt to appear to be moral, but is this really true morality, if it's only an act for the purpose of deceiving others?
    I believe this is correct. Even as I was writing "You scratch my back, I scratch yours..." I was thinking of Tony Soprano.


    But maybe if such people do exist, they have extreme personality disorders or mental disabilities.
    Yep


    You've got an interesting point about Ti/Te and Fi/Fe, but what would an Fi+Fe person do when his personal feeling contradicts the external standard for the way he should feel?

    Well, speaking from personal experience, I believe I've had many Fi/Fe conflicts in my life...what the group or other people need or is considered "right" conflicting with my personal feelings, creating either guilt or frustration.

    We all have the various functions, and I really disagree with your insistance that this is impossible.

    Of course, I acknowledge that I also have "pseudo-Fe" in the form of my Fi realizing that in order to get what I want, that it would be most effective (Te) to do what other people consider good behavior.

  2. #422

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    They have Fi, which, even as the inferior function, is much better than having no F function at all.
    I was suggesting it is a stronger trait in them than many types, much more than an inferior function would account for. Hence the inferior function is not likely to be the cause of them taking these things into account. If the inferior function is not the cause, it suggests you don't need an F to notice or care for noticing these things, which is something I would agree with. You can do the same thing for many reasons. I use logic because it is a good tool to answer certain things. Do I care about logic? Not really, but I care about the correct answer, so I have many motivations to use it.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Of course, I acknowledge that I also have "pseudo-Fe" in the form of my Fi realizing that in order to get what I want, that it would be most effective (Te) to do what other people consider good behavior.
    This part is the key. I'd argue that the only reason you ever "follow Fe" is because it serves a broader purpose for Te. This is where, I believe, most people make mistakes in interpreting their functions. And I understand why it's so confusing--you just figured out this one pretty well, but what about someone whose reasoning stops at "Oh I did what the group wanted--that has to be Fe"?

    It's easy to make that assumption, but when you stopped and thought about it you realized that when we step back another level, it really just reduces to Te's realization that sticking to your feelings all the time doesn't get as much done as you'd like.

    I think all supposed uses of shadow functions can be reduced to the main four through this process--unless your value system makes a permanent shift from Fi to Fe, in which case you'd truly be practicing Fe for its own sake and not just to serve Fi/Te's ends.


    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I was suggesting it is a stronger trait in them than many types, much more than an inferior function would account for. Hence the inferior function is not likely to be the cause of them taking these things into account. If the inferior function is not the cause, it suggests you don't need an F to notice or care for noticing these things, which is something I would agree with. You can do the same thing for many reasons. I use logic because it is a good tool to answer certain things. Do I care about logic? Not really, but I care about the correct answer, so I have many motivations to use it.
    Maybe the sample of ENTJs you know has better Fi than most? In any event, there's still a significant difference between the inferior function and no function.

    Your explanation of what logic means to you is classic Fi/Te.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post


    Maybe the sample of ENTJs you know has better Fi than most? In any event, there's still a significant difference between the inferior function and no function.

    Your explanation of what logic means to you is classic Fi/Te.
    I agree with the last line.

    I also think that maybe if this person is operating on Fi/Te, that rather than knowing a particularly in-touch-with-Fi bunch of ENTJs, this individual just responds well (generally speaking, of course) to the NTJ personality.

  5. #425
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    fi,ti,fe and all the other functions require practice!

    im going to make an assumption and say that a dominant or even secondary functions will drive a person to practice that function whenever the need arises or even whenever the need doesn't arise. its a dominant function for a reason after all.

    when one is learning to plays a piano one must fail much more than one succeeds.i dont think i would be wrong in saying that with every failed attempt one comes closer to the truth?

    the fact that the op has had problems with people who use fi to judge his own feelings incorrectly would show us that people with fi are actually motivated to empathise and practice that skill when they can.if they get it wrong would it not be better to give them as much feedback as possible especially knowning they are trying to master a skill that with practice will get better.yes it may be annoying sometimes but that doesn't make the use of it wrong or even inaccurate relatively speaking. i would rather go to an infp when i need some empathy than another intp or even entp simply because the infp has failed more in their attempts to understand the "state of mind"
    A person with ti especially an entp would want objective feedback on a system they are working on?
    doesn't an infp or any other fi type deserve the same treatmeant?whether its people or systems the fact that we are all trying to "understand" should not be trivialized away by questioning the motivation to understand.

  6. #426

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Maybe the sample of ENTJs you know has better Fi than most? In any event, there's still a significant difference between the inferior function and no function.

    Your explanation of what logic means to you is classic Fi/Te.
    Not likely, they are better at this stuff than the INTJs I know. This might help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Personalitypage (success for an ENTJ)
    If action can improve an item or a situation then it ought to be taken, and the ENTJ will always be found in the midst of such action, organizing, planning and leading the way forward until the best result possible has been realized. This makes success for an ENTJ something that can be clearly seen, a real world result which can be measured. And whether measured in dollars, bricks, bread or just happy people, the successful ENTJ knows the result is due to their belief that it is just plain commonsense to try and make the best of every situation and get the most out if it for the most people.
    Te Ni has a drive to optimise situations and get the most out of them. If they care for people, they get more out of the situation for those people and themselves. It is a motivation to show care for the ethical/emotional/empathetic when it achieves the best results. In some ways an improved version of what we do as NFs.

    A good analogy is murder. I could not murder you for many reasons. Because I feel an emotional attachment. Because I have an innate sense of what is wrong. Because the law says so. Because if I do it then others can do it to me. Because I don't like blood. etc. Society is going to say some of those reasons are better than others, but they are all valid reasons. I'm happy whether their reason is the same as mine or not.

    Social interaction is learnt with any function set. How you process information doesn't stop you from ever solving the human part or taking interest in it. You realise for one reason or another that we live together and working it somehow is best case. To figure how to work it you seek to understand your surroundings. Your surroundings include people (well most of what happens does). You see a point to considering how people work, because by doing this you better understand your surroundings. You realise how people work, you see similarities to yourself. You see similarities to yourself, you understand their reactions. You understand their reactions you have an idea of the effect of your actions. You have an idea of the effect of your actions, you gain conscience. You gain conscience, you have a reason for ethics. Why do you have a reason for ethics? Because you always knew you had emotions but now everyone does. You know what happens to them, you have a reason to consider it (whether it is logically, emotionally or rectally). Even the autistic look to understand these interactions to an extent. I doubt someone with just strange functions wouldn't.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I agree with the last line.

    I also think that maybe if this person is operating on Fi/Te, that rather than knowing a particularly in-touch-with-Fi bunch of ENTJs, this individual just responds well (generally speaking, of course) to the NTJ personality.
    Fair enough. I don't think it suggests that Te/Ti can come to real ethical/emotional conclusions without a corresponding F function, though.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Fair enough. I don't think it suggests that Te/Ti can come to real ethical/emotional conclusions without a corresponding F function, though.
    I don't either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    In some ways an improved version of what we do as NFs.


    You must really ENTJs....or are you confusing them with ENFJs, that's what I'm beginning to wonder.

  10. #430
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    ^ Yeah that's starting to confuse me a bit too.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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