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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #321
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    If you took the time and effort to wipe away your clouded Fi lens, maybe you could find it within yourself to objectively and impartially read through the numerous posts on this thread. Many members have offered an array of posts that do a very good job of explaining Fi, why it doesn't mesh well with Ti users, and how both Ti and Fi can be used in a more Fe-friendly way to remedy the situation. Your incessant nonsense about how this thread sucks is just annoying and unwanted. Most of the members posting in the last half of this thread have done a really good job of alleviating any hostility, and a lot of good things have been said. If you don't like the thread, then just stay away. None of us like listening to your pointless gripes anyway.
    I kind of tried to ignore this post, but it is still bothering me. I hope you don't mind if I ask where this post was coming from.

    Among other things, OrangeAppled hadn't posted in this thread since about page 6, so I find I'm wondering why that got characterized as "incessant whining." We all have threads and interaction styles that we prefer. I think it's fine for someone to point out a thread they like better if they think it better addresses the topic.

    While I think it's fine for you to point out that you see a lot of good content in this thread (I see some good stuff in here, too), I find the tone above to be pretty emotionally colored and hostile. Note that I think you have every right to disagree with someone else's assessment on something.

    If it's helpful I'm willing to be more specific about why I think the word choice in part of the above is a little extreme. I think most people in this thread have gone out of their way to not take offense at colorful phrasing, word choice and opinions (including in the OP). Seems like that should be a two way street when reacting to other people's posts, too.

    I hope you don't take this as offensive or over-sensitive, because I'm really not trying to be. Still, I think that a certain minimal level of restraint should be shown in our responses to each other, even when we disagree.

  2. #322
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I kind of tried to ignore this post, but it is still bothering me. I hope you don't mind if I ask where this post was coming from.

    Among other things, OrangeAppled hadn't posted in this thread since about page 6, so I find I'm wondering why that got characterized as "incessant whining." We all have threads and interaction styles that we prefer. I think it's fine for someone to point out a thread they like better if they think it better addresses the topic.

    While I think it's fine for you to point out that you see a lot of good content in this thread (I see some good stuff in here, too), I find the tone above to be pretty emotionally colored and hostile. Note that I think you have every right to disagree with someone else's assessment on something.

    If it's helpful I'm willing to be more specific about why I think the word choice in part of the above is a little extreme. I think most people in this thread have gone out of their way to not take offense at colorful phrasing, word choice and opinions (including in the OP). Seems like that should be a two way street when reacting to other people's posts, too.

    I hope you don't take this as offensive or over-sensitive, because I'm really not trying to be. Still, I think that a certain minimal level of restraint should be shown in our responses to each other, even when we disagree.
    No I don't take this post as offensive or overly sensitive, don't worry. You are nice to provide such insight, and I understand where you are coming from.

    However, OA never approached this thread reasonably and with an open mind, even after the hostility was alleviated. The fact that she's back griping about it is just kind of unnecessary and rude to the people that have spent a lot of energy trying to provide reasonable arguments and claims, imo.

    So yes, my tone was intended to be hostile because I'm just that annoyed with her. I turned off the Fe there because her closed-minded interpretation of this thread was irking me. People have spent pages of posts giving productive information and insights, but she just completely ignored them and thumbed down the whole thread, and that's just rude and uncalled for, so I see no reason to provide her with any Fe decency if she won't do the same for everybody else that has been helpful in this thread. I'd prefer she just stay away if she has nothing but insult to contribute.

    Sure, we all are entitled to our opinions about which threads we enjoy, but her opinion was reasonably interpreted as hostile towards this thread. If she preferred the other thread, she could have ended her post before adding in the thumbs-down part. It was just rude and unnecessary, and I'm not one to treat rude and unnecessary with courtesy.

  3. #323
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    No I don't take this post as offensive or overly sensitive, don't worry. You are nice to provide such insight, and I understand where you are coming from.

    However, OA never approached this thread reasonably, and the fact that she's back griping about it is just kind of unnecessary and rude to the people that have spent a lot of energy trying to provide reasonable arguments and claims, imo.

    Yes, my tone was intended to be hostile because I'm just that annoyed with her. I turned off the Fe there because her closed-minded interpretation of this thread was irking me. People have spent pages of posts giving productive information and insights, but she just completely ignored them and thumbed down the whole thread, and that's just rude and uncalled for, so I see no reason to provide her with any Fe decency if she won't do the same for everybody else that has been helpful in this thread. I'd prefer she just stay away if she has nothing but insult to contribute.
    I can understand all that (whether or not I personally agree with every one of your assessments). It just makes it difficult for me to want to remain involved with the thread (and I do find the topic and viewpoints really interesting) when my continuing posts make it seem like I'm implicitly agreeing with that level of hostility.

    I do want this discussion to continue (including hearing your perspectives) but I'd far prefer for it to happen more civilly. Sorry to make this all about my personal comfort level, but I felt like I couldn't just ignore the whole thing. I can always bow out, too, if that's too much of an imposition on others.

    Thanks for responding and explaining where you were coming from. Was definitely helpful. Appreciate you answering honestly.

  4. #324
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I can understand all that (whether or not I personally agree with every one of your assessments). It just makes it difficult for me to want to remain involved with the thread (and I do find the topic and viewpoints really interesting) when my continuing posts make it seem like I'm implicitly agreeing with that level of hostility.

    I do want this discussion to continue (including hearing your perspectives) but I'd far prefer for it to happen more civilly. Sorry to make this all about my personal comfort level, but I felt like I couldn't just ignore the whole thing. I can always bow out, too, if that's too much of an imposition on others.

    Thanks for responding and explaining where you were coming from. Was definitely helpful. Appreciate you answering honestly.
    I feel like she has behaved uncivilly, so I was treating her in the same uncivil manner. That's all. I don't like being uncivil to people who are actually trying to discern something useful from these threads, but it seems like all she wants to do is adamantly defend Fi and talk about its good things, so as soon as anyone says anything bad about it, she goes off on her personal soap box in a bit of a hostile way.

    I typically try to respect people who actually seem interested in a reasonable discussion, but she has not given any evidence that she's here for that. You, on the other hand, along with most of the others in this thread, have been perfectly willing to engage in a respectable discussion, and I believe I've treated you and them with a good bit of courtesy and decency. I'm sorry if anything I've said to OA or anybody else in this thread has scared you away; regardless of how extreme I may sound at times, there's rarely any hard feelings.

  5. #325
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ I like how you've expressed that sim.

    But do you think a Ti dominant would never use Fi? Never, ever?
    Not just Ti dominants, I don't think any type with Ti in its functional makeup uses Fi, ever, and vice versa.

    imho, there are four basic types of cognitive tasks: external perceptions, internal perceptions, external judgments and internal judgments. We need a different cognitive function to handle each of these types of tasks, but we don't use two different contradictory forms of the same type of function because the clash between them would keep us from having any real solidified value systems. Ti and Fi contradict each other--Ti and Fe don't, though, because they perform different tasks in different areas.

    One form of Ji says: "I think our worldview for internal judgments should be built on these criteria,"
    but then the other form says: "No, I think it should be built on these criteria instead."

    I think the belief that people use all eight functions is tied to a fundamental misunderstanding as to what functions actually are. They are not just singular actions--"I went with my conscience so I must have used Fi" doesn't make any sense. Ti is just as much of a "conscience" as Fi; it just bases these internal judgments on wholly different criteria. If you don't know someone very well, it's easy to confuse Ti/Fi, or Se/Ne, or Te/Fe, or Si/Ni, because each of these pairs performs very similar tasks and operates in similar situations--they're only subtly different in terms of criteria used to perform the task.

    The functions are lenses that color our perspectives on everything. Saying "I use Ti sometimes and Fi other times" is effectively saying, "My most basic conception of how to choose the moral and logical values that my entire life is built on changes all the time", which is just silly. Functions are the deepest underlying value systems upon which we construct our entire worldview.

    From a Ti standpoint, making internal value judgments based on personal feelings doesn't make any sense at all. From an Fi standpoint, ignoring your feelings and making them based on impersonal logical constructs doesn't make any sense at all. People who claim to switch between both just misunderstand the nature of their functions, and don't really realize that whatever seemingly off-function decision they're making can actually be reduced further to manifestations of their regular functions, upon closer analysis. In short, they're not looking deeply enough at their own motivations.

    You just can't say this to some people or they get offended and think you're imposing on their individuality. Not coincidentally, this almost always comes from Fi users.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #326
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I feel like she has behaved uncivilly, so I was treating her in the same uncivil manner. That's all. I don't like being uncivil to people who are actually trying to discern something useful from these threads, but it seems like all she wants to do is adamantly defend Fi and talk about its good things, so as soon as anyone says anything bad about it, she goes off on her personal soap box in a bit of a hostile way.

    I typically try to respect people who actually seem interested in a reasonable discussion, but she has not given any evidence that she's here for that. You, on the other hand, along with most of the others in this thread, have been perfectly willing to engage in a respectable discussion, and I believe I've treated you and them with a good bit of courtesy and decency. I'm sorry if anything I've said to OA or anybody else in this thread has scared you away; regardless of how extreme I may sound at times, there's rarely any hard feelings.
    I'm fine with how you treated me personally (definitely have been courteous in your responses to my posts), and don't bear you any personal ill-will about anything. I also don't know your history with OA, but it just seemed (to a newbie like me) that the response was out of line with the offense.

    If it's okay with you, let's table this and move on. Sorry to derail the conversation.

    So... about Ti having a hard time allow Fi much scope in a Ti-dom....

  7. #327
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You just can't say this to some people or they get offended and think you're imposing on their individuality. Not coincidentally, this almost always comes from Fi users.
    Yeah, some people might think it is pretentious
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  8. #328
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Not to overemphasize the point:

    I think online we can forget about "being polite" to the detriment of understanding. OA won't be back to this thread likely, and perhaps that gives you satisfaction teslashock; true, she was impatient - and you hostile in response, so hostile as to ensure your point for her to "piss off" was well-taken. You admit to it yourself above.

    And as an outcome, many Fi users will simply steer clear of you in the future and won't be as open to help you with legitimate questions or concerns you might have. Perhaps to your loss. Who wants to be berated exponentially to the offense?

    There's an old saying, and a wise one to be considered: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    I applaud Seymour for broaching the topic.

    Also, explore the shadow functions more deeply. They may enhance your appreciation that we are possibly more than the sum of only 4 cognitive functions. The "math" in psychological theory is not so exact, therefore it shouldn't be applied as such, but I can appreciate the desire that it be so.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think the belief that people use all eight functions is tied to a fundamental misunderstanding as to what functions actually are. They are not just singular actions--"I went with my conscience so I must have used Fi" doesn't make any sense. Ti is just as much of a "conscience" as Fi; it just bases these internal judgments on wholly different criteria. If you don't know someone very well, it's easy to confuse Ti/Fi, or Se/Ne, or Te/Fe, or Si/Ni, because each of these pairs performs very similar tasks and operates in similar situations--they're only subtly different in terms of criteria used to perform the task.
    OK, so let's assume that shadow functions exist for a moment. Could it not be that, in a stress situation, that the individual simply cycles down through the functions, from dominant to weakest, in an effort to, in desparation almost, latch on to a function that allows them to ... survive?

  9. #329
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Not to overemphasize the point:

    I think online we can forget about "being polite" to the detriment of understanding. OA won't be back to this thread likely, and perhaps that gives you satisfaction teslashock; true, she was impatient - and you hostile in response, so hostile as to ensure your point for her to "piss off" was well-taken. You admit to it yourself above.

    And as an outcome, many Fi users will simply steer clear of you in the future and won't be as open to help you with legitimate questions or concerns you might have. Perhaps to your loss.
    Well, I have a number of NFP buddies on this forum that I think will still give me the time of day, regardless of how I treated OA. I don't think that all NFPs are unreasonable simply because OA is an NFP and I find her unreasonable, and I hope my posts to her don't resonate with that belief.

    There's an old saying, and a wise one to be considered: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
    Yeah that's a nice saying, but this is an internet forum, and the consequences here are limited. I don't really see the value in expending the energy to use honey on a fly that I don't even think is worth catching.

    I applaud Seymour for broaching the topic.
    Yeah me too, especially considering how scary I seem

    Also, explore the shadow functions more deeply.

    They may enhance your appreciation that we are possibly more than the sum of only 4 cognitive functions. The "math" in psychological theory is not so exact, therefore it shouldn't be applied as such, but I can appreciate the desire that it be so.
    Meh...

    I'm not trying to apply math here. Four isn't some appealing number to me. It just makes more sense to me that if one uses Ti to define their personal value system, they can't also use Fi.

  10. #330
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    OK, so let's assume that shadow functions exist for a moment. Could it not be that, in a stress situation, that the individual simply cycles down through the functions, from dominant to weakest, in an effort to, in desparation almost, latch on to a function that allows them to ... survive?
    I know this was directed at SW, but I'll respond anyway. I don't really see how our actions and cognitive processes in times of desperate situations where we are on the brink of death is particularly pertinent to evaluating our true personalities. We aren't our selves in times of serious stress.

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