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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #301
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    This is as good as work, watching the NT's go at it!

    Carry on! It's very exciting.

    Oh, and I had a question above. Get to it at your own pace.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I don't believe that Ti/Fe users can use Fi and that Fi/Te users can use Ti. The two systems are just so fundamentally contradictory.
    I disagree. I think certain types can pull out functions in others that they are not used to using. This is from experience, not theory.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #303
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I disagree. I think certain types can pull out functions in others that they are not used to using. This is from experience, not theory.
    Bah, have you even read the last 10-20 posts here?

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    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ I like how you've expressed that sim.

    But do you think a Ti dominant would never use Fi? Never, ever?
    This has been said/implied several times, but I'll say it again:

    Ti and Fi yield value systems. You cannot possess a Ti value system and an Fi value system, as the two value systems contradict (one is based on impersonal logical consistency while the other is based on personal empathetic/emotional harmony). The only way that you can be using Ti is by possessing a Ti value system. Likewise, the only way that you can be using Fi is by possessing an Fi value system.

    If you ever seem like you are "using" Fi as a Ti user or "using" Ti as an Fi user, then you are just behaving in a way that Fi/Ti users behave, but you are not actually using Fi/Ti. Instead, you are using another function or combination of functions to reach the same kind of conclusions that are motivated by Fi or Ti.

  5. #305
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Actually, no that's not what my post implied. I said "a lot" and "many." I never said "most" or "nearly all." My specific example only confuses others when they think that my example should be ubiquitously applied, and I never said that it should.

    Thank you for generalizing it, but you did it in a way that seemed like you were correcting me, and I don't think my post warranted correction. Generalizing is fine, but that's not what I was trying to do.
    Then don't use it as a representative example. There's nothing illustrative about that dichotomy unless you're using it to represent the whole. It's the same kind of crap as the assumption that all ENTPs spend their time inventing machinery, not realizing that there are plenty of other options available for expressing creativity.

  6. #306
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I was looking for yes or no actually.

    I think I understand what you are saying. I know you'll correct me if I'm off so here's my interpretation - Basically you are saying that behaviour is a derivative of only 4 functions for any given type. For example, something can look like Ti but it is not really Ti. It will be a combination of dominant / auxiliary / teritiary and inferior functions. Nothing more.

    Correct?

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    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Then don't use it as a representative example. There's nothing illustrative about that dichotomy unless you're using it to represent the whole. It's the same kind of crap as the assumption that all ENTPs spend their time inventing machinery, not realizing that there are plenty of other options available for expressing creativity.
    Um, wrong. The example was meant to illustrate how Fi/Te and Fe/Ti can contradict in a specific instance. The rest of my post was broader, but I wanted to provide a more concrete example for it to make more sense. Christ will you please quit telling me that I intended for my politics example to be representative and that it's meaningless if it doesn't align with a larger whole?

    Again, I never said that all XXXXs have a certain political stance. Just as when people say that ENTPs may spend time inventing machines, they don't mean to imply that this is the only possible creative outlet and thus all ENTPs do it. It's an example. Not everything is meant to be a generalization, ya know. Specific examples can do a lot for helping people grasp concepts. Things do not always have to be general and abstract for them to make sense. Geeze, tone down the Ne for a sec and hone in on some more tangible details.

  8. #308
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I was looking for yes or no actually.

    I think I understand what you are saying. I know you'll correct me if I'm off so here's my interpretation - Basically you are saying that behaviour is a derivative of only 4 functions for any given type. For example, something can look like Ti but it is not really Ti. It will be a combination of dominant / auxiliary / teritiary and inferior functions. Nothing more.

    Correct?
    Yes. I believe that Ti/Fi are contradictory, as are Si/Ni, Se/Ne, and Te/Fe.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    This has been said/implied several times, but I'll say it again:

    Ti and Fi yield value systems. You cannot possess a Ti value system and an Fi value system, as the two value systems contradict (one is based on impersonal logical consistency while the other is based on personal empathetic/emotional harmony). The only way that you can be using Ti is by possessing a Ti value system. Likewise, the only way that you can be using Fi is by possessing an Fi value system.

    If you ever seem like you are "using" Fi as a Ti user or "using" Ti as an Fi user, then you are just behaving in a way that Fi/Ti users behave, but you are not actually using Fi/Ti. Instead, you are using another function or combination of functions to reach the same kind of conclusions that are motivated by Ti or Fi.
    I went through the same thought process as you several months ago. And came to the same conclusion, but I have changed. Sorry experience is what brought me to this new thought, not logic. Good luck trying to use logic to get me to think different.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #310
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    However, as for your claim that we all use Ti and we all use Fi, I don't really agree with this. I don't believe that Ti/Fe users can use Fi and that Fi/Te users can use Ti. The two systems are just so fundamentally contradictory.
    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I was just trying to explain to you why I think that Fi/Ti are so contradictory and thus cannot both be used by a given person.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, and it's my (our) contention that Fi/Te people never make internal value judgments on any basis other than personal ethical values because they have a fundamental worldview that defines ethics as personal and subjective, and logic as dependent upon external conditions.

    Ti and Fi contradict each other because one says that internal value judgments should be made impersonally and the other says they should be made personally.
    Let's not forget the shadows! Everyone does use all eight processes, only the last four or five are rejected by the consciousness, and hence not normally used, but do come up in certain situations (good and bad). The first four can degrade directly to their shadow counterpart (with the attitude reversed), and also, the first two can do the right or left brain switch, and keep the same attitude, but reverse the function. For an Fi user, that would be Ti.
    When Ti and Te get lumped together into just "T" and Fi/Fe turn into just "F", it's very hard to discern the difference between Te+Fi and Fe+Ti--but it's definitely there.
    They weren't "lumped together"; that's the way they were originally conceived, actually.

    If you understand that there are really only four functions (SNTF; no i/e yet), which an ego uses in an internal or external way (simulating the "Xi/e"), then it figures how the shadows will play out for each type.
    T and F are just two sides of the "rational" (J) coin, and S and N are two sides of the a-rational (P) coin. And then if these function coins are split along the edge into separate coins in themselves, the different orientations of them are just different sides of those coins. While Jung did later make introversion and extraversion essentially properties of the functions (such that I/E became little more than "the dominant function attitude"), initially, they were properties of the ego. It's the ego that chooses an internal or external preference.
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