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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #291
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Was that a conclusion you arrived to, based on everything you explained? Or did you start out by accepting it as true and then prove yourself?
    I was just trying to explain to you why I think that Fi/Ti are so contradictory and thus cannot both be used by a given person.

    Because to me it makes a lot of sense for people to be using the different functions (certainly to varying degrees) at different points having a select few preferences.
    It only makes sense because you can't see how two different functions might reach the same end goal.


    I see Fi and Te as a lot more contradictory between them than Fi and Ti which are basically using the same "work ethic", only with different objects. Now you can have preference for a certain kind of object (in an ENFPs case, feelings I guess) but nothing is stopping you for being detached in certain scenarios that don't strike you at a subconscious level (where instinct dictates that you WILL use Fi).
    Please explain how Fi and Te are contradictory. That just doesn't make any sense to me. I already explained in a couple posts back how Fi and Te work together to provide one with a liberal and/or humanitarian political slant.

    There seem to be quite a few INtPs out there which are a lot more comfortable with feelings, and it makes more sense for them to use Fi (which they seem to do, since they tend to be divided between the INTP and INFP descriptions) than to be using their inferior function Fe in any proficient way.
    Fi does not hold claim on emotional expression and "feelings." Where is your argument that a feely INTP is using Fi when he/she becomes feely? Why not Fe?




    And I do think that SOME of the conclusions I arrived to in my value system used Ti as well. Live and let live makes sense to me not just from an empathic angle but from a logical one as well.
    Live and let live probably makes sense to you because it's practical, not logical. You probably equate practical with logical, but they aren't the same.

  2. #292
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Whoa, slow your roll there - Ti/Fe can be quite progressive as well (NeTi is a hell of a tinkerer, you know), given hard power dynamics (if many people aren't comfortable, they come after the people who are with guns and murder in their eyes), along with a desire to solve problems at a large, effective scale (requiring broad power structures).

    Fi/Te, on the other hand, can also be highly libertarian, if maximization of personal freedom is among that person's core values. They'll also be among the most vocal about it, too - you can't look at the Ron Paul movement or the initial stages of the Tea Partiers and tell me that there wasn't a lot of Fi there.
    Ok, sorry I didn't put in the mandatory footnote that my post was not supposed to be taken as universally and ubiquitously accurate. Of course NTPs can be liberal and of course FPs can be libertarian. I was just giving an example.

  3. #293
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Was that a conclusion you arrived to, based on everything you explained? Or did you start out by accepting it as true and then prove yourself?

    Because to me it makes a lot of sense for people to be using the different functions (certainly to varying degrees) at different points having a select few preferences.
    That's interesting, because this is a very Fi decision. Whenever you make a judgment, ask yourself what the ultimate root cause that led to it was. If you keep reducing, you'll find ethics and logic don't mix--one governs the inner world (and is thus subjective and non-negotiable) and the other governs the outer world (and is thus relative to current conditions.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Posting in a MBTI forum for me is like going to sunday school when I was a child - even though I might agree with/believe in the theory/concept, I'm only interested in if it keeps answering the questions I come up with.
    So what makes you think you're using Ti even some of the time? Fi "just knows" that you can't be so limited as to use only four of the eight functions?




    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I see it as : When you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.
    Yes, and it's my (our) contention that Fi/Te people never make internal value judgments on any basis other than personal ethical values because they have a fundamental worldview that defines ethics as personal and subjective, and logic as dependent upon external conditions.

    Provide any example you want where you think you used Ti, and if you keep asking "Why?" until it's reduced to its fundamental motivation, you'll find that it's based on subjective personal values (Fi) or an empirical definition of what works (Te.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I see Fi and Te as a lot more contradictory between them than Fi and Ti which are basically using the same "work ethic", only with different objects. Now you can have preference for a certain kind of object (in an ENFPs case, feelings I guess) but nothing is stopping you for being detached in certain scenarios that don't strike you at a subconscious level (where instinct dictates that you WILL use Fi).
    It may seem that way, but actually Te compliments Fi by providing a way to make impersonal judgments according to one's surroundings. Fi, being introverted, can't really deal directly with the external world so another form of judgment is needed to make decisions that require influence from external conditions.

    The same relationship applies to Fe/Ti. Ti and Fi contradict each other because one says that internal value judgments should be made impersonally and the other says they should be made personally. If I were to ask you how internal value judgments should be made, you'd probably answer that it depends on the situation, but I think if you try and find a situation where you made an internal value judgment impersonally, you'll find that digging deep enough into your true reasoning process shows that it always reduces to an Fi value.

    For instance, consider an INFP judge who is morally opposed to causing pain. Fi might prevent him from sentencing people to the proper punishments--but then (if he were a balanced person) Te would step in and say, "Listen, I know this feels wrong, but the system won't function the way it's supposed to if you don't do your job and sentence people to harmful punishments." You might misinterpret this as Ti, but it's really Te+Fi because failure to perform his duties correctly here would constitute an even broader breach of Fi's ethics--"It is my moral duty to pass this sentence."

    It's all a question of whether you think morality comes from the inside and logic from the outside, or vice versa--and these are fundamentally pervasive worldviews that don't mix.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    There seem to be quite a few INtPs out there which are a lot more comfortable with feelings, and it makes more sense for them to use Fi (which they seem to do, since they tend to be divided between the INTP and INFP descriptions) than to be using their inferior function Fe in any proficient way.
    These are just people who don't know about functions and can't decide between the poorly written oversimplified MBTI profiles for INFP and INTP. There is a very distinct difference between the two in the way moral and logical values are discerned--but MBTI is garbage and doesn't tell you that. When Ti and Te get lumped together into just "T" and Fi/Fe turn into just "F", it's very hard to discern the difference between Te+Fi and Fe+Ti--but it's definitely there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I don't know what makes you use the expression "large majority" which such decisiveness, but yes it makes perfect sense that my Fi's indignation at a possible threat to my individuality is the subconscious reason why I'm searching for a less constricting and rudimentary personality system that I don't think accurately separates me from other people.
    I suppose I'd have to attribute this to my Si and its experience with this sort of thing. Ti users usually want to be placed into a particular category because they appreciate impersonal and definite categorization. Fi users (especially in conjunction with Ne) are almost invariably the ones who cling to "OH BUT I'M TOO UNIQUE TO BE CATEGORIZED, SO I DON'T HAVE A TYPE!!"...which is in itself a heavily Fi-oriented position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Bear in mind, I'm not saying I'm not an ENFP, or even that I don't use Fi 90% of the time...I simply think I use Ti as well cause the description resonates..
    And I do think that SOME of the conclusions I arrived to in my value system used Ti as well. Live and let live makes sense to me not just from an empathic angle but from a logical one as well.
    Let's hear some examples of your Ti use. I expect upon closer examination they can be reduced to Fi/Te motivations.

    Consider, also, that many descriptions of these things are poorly written by people who don't understand them very well. Often someone will notice a common behavior in INTPs and then write a description that declares it a Ti behavior, which is silly. There's no such thing as a Ti behavior, only Ti motivations.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #294
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's all a question of whether you think morality comes from the inside and logic from the outside, or vice versa--and these are fundamentally pervasive worldviews that don't mix.
    ^ I like how you've expressed that sim.

    But do you think a Ti dominant would never use Fi? Never, ever?

  5. #295
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Ok, sorry I didn't put in the mandatory footnote that my post was not supposed to be taken as universally and ubiquitously accurate. Of course NTPs can be liberal and of course FPs can be libertarian. I was just giving an example.
    However, you were using that as a representative example. Needless to say, it's probably smarter to be a little more precise in presentation than political alignment. Something like: "in politics, TiFe likely leads to a desire to fix the current problems of the day, based on one's political alignment and desire to create social harmony. On the other hand, FiTe in politics will likely fight vigorously to promote those causes and defeat those opponents which stand in the way of truth. The former will criticize the latter as impractical, the latter the former as calculating and conniving."

  6. #296
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    However, you were using that as a representative example. Needless to say, it's probably smarter to be a little more precise in presentation than political alignment. Something like: "in politics, TiFe likely leads to a desire to fix the current problems of the day, based on one's political alignment and desire to create social harmony. On the other hand, FiTe in politics will likely fight vigorously to promote those causes and defeat those opponents which stand in the way of truth. The former will criticize the latter as impractical, the latter the former as calculating and conniving."
    I don't see what's wrong with me using a more concrete example, and it's probably easier to absorb than a more general approach. I simply wanted to provide an example of how Ti/Fe work and how Fi/Te work, and how the two may be contradictory. General or specific, it still gets the point across. You're just being a pain right now.

    If you want to generalize my example to make it more representative, then go for it, but don't tell me how I could have been "smarter" in my phrasing. It'd be smarter for you to realize that I wasn't trying to provide a broad representative example. Again, obviously I don't think that TP necessarily implies libertarianism and FP necessarily implies liberalism. That's silly.

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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I don't see what's wrong with me using a more concrete example. It still gets the point across, and it's probably easier to absorb than a more general approach. You're just being a pain right now.

    I'm
    the one being a pain, when you were the one who made an overly broad generalization that might have confused others, and getting snippy and defensive when I tried to help make the example fit the typological model better.

    Politics, like any other social science, is anything but concrete on the surface. You have to remain broad and general until you find hard data with which you can make a more precise claim.

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    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    If you want to generalize my example to make it more representative, then go for it, but don't tell me how I could have been "smarter" in my phrasing. It'd be smarter for you to realize that I wasn't trying to provide a broad representative example. Again, obviously I don't think that TP necessarily implies libertarianism and FP necessarily implies liberalism. That's silly.
    That is what you implied, however. I've spent far too much time making phone calls and poring over statistics to let that go. Forgive me if I offended you in my phrasing.

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    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That is what you implied, however. I've spent far too much time making phone calls and poring over statistics to let that go. Forgive me if I offended you in my phrasing.
    Actually, no that's not what my post implied. I said "a lot" and "many." I never said "most" or "nearly all." My specific example only confuses others when they think that my example should be ubiquitously applied, and I never said that it should.

    Thank you for generalizing it, but you did it in a way that seemed like you were correcting me, and I don't think my post warranted correction. Generalizing is fine, but that's not what I was trying to do.

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