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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #281
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I don't believe that Ti/Fe users can use Fi and that Fi/Te users can use Ti. The two systems are just so fundamentally contradictory.
    I would love to see a definition of Ti and all the reasons why me as an ENFP couldn't possibly be using it.

  2. #282
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I like this thread because it has people describing how they, as individuals, experience their functions. You can count on me to be long-winded anyway

    However, this thread,
    If you took the time and effort to wipe away your clouded Fi lens, maybe you could find it within yourself to objectively and impartially read through the numerous posts on this thread. Many members have offered an array of posts that do a very good job of explaining Fi, why it doesn't mesh well with Ti users, and how both Ti and Fi can be used in a more Fe-friendly way to remedy the situation. Your incessant nonsense about how this thread sucks is just annoying and unwanted. Most of the members posting in the last half of this thread have done a really good job of alleviating any hostility, and a lot of good things have been said. If you don't like the thread, then just stay away. None of us like listening to your pointless gripes anyway.

  3. #283
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I would love to see a definition of Ti and all the reasons why me as an ENFP couldn't possibly be using it.
    Both Ti and Fi cause one to hold a certain rigid value system. Ti causes one to have a value system based on impersonal logical consistency. Fi causes one to have a value system based on personal empathy. You're using Ji whenever you attempt to abide by your given value system, not simply whenever you come to a Ti conclusion or an Fi conclusion. Being logical does not necessarily mean you are using Ti, and being empathetic does not necessarily mean you are using Fi.

    You can't have a value system that's simultaneously based both on impersonal logic and personal empathy. Again, they are just so fundamentally contradictory. As an Fi user, you don't seek out impersonal logical consistency; you seek out personal emotional harmony. There is no viable logical argument that says we are obligated to be empathetic, and there is no viable empathetic argument that says logic should be of the utmost importance.

    Here's a bit of a concrete political example that may help to stress my point:

    Ti coupled with a healthy dose of Fe attempts to apply this logical value system to be harmonious with the rest of society. A lot of Ti/Fe users lean towards libertarianism because "live and let live" makes logical sense on an impersonal level for Ti and letting people be free of others' burdens allows people to get along well, thereby appealing to Fe.

    On the other hand, Fi coupled with a healthy dose of Te attempts to externalize this empathy to help others in a pragmatic way. Many Fi/Te users have a more politically liberal slant, as they believe that the more fortunate should be active in helping the downtrodden.

    As an ENFP, you may come to some of the same conclusions that Ti users come to. Sure, you have the ability to find logical holes in arguments, and you can systematize and analyze in the same way that Ti users do. However, you're not using Ti to do this. It's occurring because you have been introduced to logic before and come to understand it (Si), because you realize that logical consistency is practical (Te), and because you have the Ne to realize that logical analysis/systematization is one of many possible solutions to a given challenge.

    Bottom line, it just doesn't make sense to have a value system driven by both Ti and Fi. You may appear to be using Ti, but it's just a result of some other function. Ti users and Fi users simply cannot think the same way on the most basic cognitive level.

  4. #284
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I would love to see a definition of Ti and all the reasons why me as an ENFP couldn't possibly be using it.
    If you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

    Ti is a directly contradictory attitude that makes the same sorts of decisions as Fi, except it makes a point of basing them on impersonal reasoning that is "logical in a vacuum" instead of on personal values.

    When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.

    On a side note, a large majority of the people who claim to use every function are Fi users who don't like the feeling of being "boxed in" by the theory because they think it's dehumanizing. Your decision that no function is beyond you seems likely to be based on Fi's indignation at a perceived threat to its individuality.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #285
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.
    The rest of your post was good, but I don't see how this is a relevant point to support your claim that Ti users can't use Fi. Just because you extrovert feeling doesn't mean you can't introvert it as well. If an ExTJ has really shitty Fi (as most do), I still think he/she could have a value system based heavily on impersonal logic, despite the dominant Te.

    Having a value system based off of impersonal logic is much more contradictory to Fi than extroverting one's emotions is, imho.

  6. #286
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The rest of your post was good, but I don't see how this is a relevant point to support your claim that Ti users can't use Fi. Just because you extrovert feeling doesn't mean you can't introvert it as well. If an ExTJ has really shitty Fi (as most do), I still think he/she could have a value system based heavily on impersonal logic, despite the dominant Te.

    Having a value system based off of impersonal logic is much more contradictory to Fi than extroverting one's emotions is, imho.
    It's just a supporting detail to help complete the picture. The relationship between Ti and Fe dictates that logical judgments should be made internally and according to impersonal reasoning which exists in a vacuum and is unaffected by external conditions, while ethical decisions should be made externally and according to the communal values of one's social/tribal group--which is dependent upon external conditions. Logic = self and ethics = environment.

    This directly contradicts the Fi/Te approach, which says that ethics are private and unaffected by external conditions, but that what is logical depends upon what's going on outside the self. Ethics = self and logic = environment.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #287
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Bottom line, it just doesn't make sense to have a value system driven by both Ti and Fi. You may appear to be using Ti, but it's just a result of some other function. Ti users and Fi users simply cannot think the same way on the most basic cognitive level.
    Was that a conclusion you arrived to, based on everything you explained? Or did you start out by accepting it as true and then prove yourself?

    Because to me it makes a lot of sense for people to be using the different functions (certainly to varying degrees) at different points having a select few preferences.

    Posting in a MBTI forum for me is like going to sunday school when I was a child - even though I might agree with/believe in the theory/concept, I'm only interested in if it keeps answering the questions I come up with.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.
    I see it as : When you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

    Ti is a directly contradictory attitude that makes the same sorts of decisions as Fi, except it makes a point of basing them on impersonal reasoning that is "logical in a vacuum" instead of on personal values.
    I see Fi and Te as a lot more contradictory between them than Fi and Ti which are basically using the same "work ethic", only with different objects. Now you can have preference for a certain kind of object (in an ENFPs case, feelings I guess) but nothing is stopping you for being detached in certain scenarios that don't strike you at a subconscious level (where instinct dictates that you WILL use Fi).

    When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.
    There seem to be quite a few INtPs out there which are a lot more comfortable with feelings, and it makes more sense for them to use Fi (which they seem to do, since they tend to be divided between the INTP and INFP descriptions) than to be using their inferior function Fe in any proficient way.

    On a side note, a large majority of the people who claim to use every function are Fi users who don't like the feeling of being "boxed in" by the theory because they think it's dehumanizing. Your decision that no function is beyond you seems likely to be based on Fi's indignation at a perceived threat to its individuality.
    I don't know what makes you use the expression "large majority" which such decisiveness, but yes it makes perfect sense that my Fi's indignation at a possible threat to my individuality is the subconscious reason why I'm searching for a less constricting and rudimentary personality system that I don't think accurately separates me from other people.

    Bear in mind, I'm not saying I'm not an ENFP, or even that I don't use Fi 90% of the time...I simply think I use Ti as well cause the description resonates..


    And I do think that SOME of the conclusions I arrived to in my value system used Ti as well. Live and let live makes sense to me not just from an empathic angle but from a logical one as well.

  8. #288
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's just a supporting detail to help complete the picture. The relationship between Ti and Fe dictates that logical judgments should be made internally and according to impersonal reasoning which exists in a vacuum and is unaffected by external conditions, while ethical decisions should be made externally and according to the communal values of one's social/tribal group--which is dependent upon external conditions. Logic = self and ethics = environment.

    This directly contradicts the Fi/Te approach, which says that ethics are private and unaffected by external conditions, but that what is logical depends upon what's going on outside the self. Ethics = self and logic = environment.
    Yeah that argument isn't really doing it for me. I still don't see why it's not possible for logic = environment + self or why it's not possible for ethics = environment + self. I completely agree with you that both logic + ethics cannot = environment and that logic + ethics cannot = self, but why do you believe that everyone expresses both logic and ethics in some form?

    It seems like your Ti is just wanting to create a cohesive and conclusive picture in an attempt for things to make logical sense, but my Ne is not accepting that this pretty picture is the only possibility.

  9. #289
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

    Ti is a directly contradictory attitude that makes the same sorts of decisions as Fi, except it makes a point of basing them on impersonal reasoning that is "logical in a vacuum" instead of on personal values.

    When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.

    On a side note, a large majority of the people who claim to use every function are Fi users who don't like the feeling of being "boxed in" by the theory because they think it's dehumanizing. Your decision that no function is beyond you seems likely to be based on Fi's indignation at a perceived threat to its individuality.
    I think you'll find that most type materials claim that everyone has at least some access to all 8 functions. That doesn't mean one is likely to use a less preferred function as the final arbiter when making important decisions though. I think we tend to use our less preferred functions more contextually to back the goals decided upon by our preferred functions.

    For example, I may decide to do something in a squishy Fi-based way, but I may enlist some form of Thinking to backfill so I can analyze, justify and concisely explain my choice to others.

    I think Ti may be exacting enough that some Ti-heavy folks may have a harder time allowing other, less precise and exacting judging functions much reign (as some Ti users have argued here). Being an Fi-dom, I can't really say for sure, but I could see that as a possibility.

  10. #290
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Ti coupled with a healthy dose of Fe attempts to apply this logical value system to be harmonious with the rest of society. A lot of Ti/Fe users lean towards libertarianism because "live and let live" makes logical sense on an impersonal level for Ti and letting people be free of others' burdens allows people to get along well, thereby appealing to Fe.

    On the other hand, Fi coupled with a healthy dose of Te attempts to externalize this empathy to help others in a pragmatic way. Many Fi/Te users have a more politically liberal slant, as they believe that the more fortunate should be active in helping the downtrodden.
    Whoa, slow your roll there - Ti/Fe can be quite progressive as well (NeTi is a hell of a tinkerer, you know), given hard power dynamics (if many people aren't comfortable, they come after the people who are with guns and murder in their eyes), along with a desire to solve problems at a large, effective scale (requiring broad power structures).

    Fi/Te, on the other hand, can also be highly libertarian, if maximization of personal freedom is among that person's core values. They'll also be among the most vocal about it, too - you can't look at the Ron Paul movement or the initial stages of the Tea Partiers and tell me that there wasn't a lot of Fi there.

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