User Tag List

First 18262728293038 Last

Results 271 to 280 of 492

Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #271
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    regardless of how it began, if you want to learn about Fi, this thread has a lot of great posts to help. we're never going to have a consensus, a shared understanding, etc, but the experiments and attempts do help unseat the worst misreadings, or at least provide the opportunity for people to learn (tho many people won't learn anything at all).

  2. #272
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Agreed, but I'd prefer it personally if we did the Fi-discussion in one of the positive threads out there, like my Fi 101 thread (yes, I'm blatantly self-promoting here )

    In all seriousness though, I personally feel more at ease in that thread coz it has a very different ambiance to it. This thread does have its merit though, to read and to learn from, I admit.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  3. #273
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    like this thread is going on in the seedy underbelly of the city... you gotta watch your back.

  4. #274
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    ^just call me Don Teslashock.

  5. #275
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    like this thread is going on in the seedy underbelly of the city... you gotta watch your back.
    Hah. Well said. Dangerous, yet alluring.

  6. #276
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Socionics
    ENFP
    Posts
    1,210

    Default

    Dear DonnaTesla,

    Thank you for starting this thread and highlighting the large communication gap that exists between NFPs and NTPs - ENTPs in particular.

    I will, along with the 62.5 people who have done so already, question the use of the word pretentious in this context. My interest is more in terms of accuracy than potential offense. It seems apt if you consider purely the aspect of pretension that makes grandiose claims. Fits. However, pretension also implies an insincerity which is lacking in most NFPs who are more than slightly obsessed with being authentic, reflecting outside what is felt inside. Hence arrogance, presumptuousness, intrusiveness, overbearing...may all apply in different circumstances but pretentious has a part that doesn't fit. Having suitably insulted my beloved brethren and myself, I'll end this note here.

    Ergo.

    More general:

    1. I did read through the WHOLE thread. Yes, I'm that committed and this is, more than anything, making me question my commitment to my ENPness. This type of effort is rare in my world.
    2. This thread highlights, to me, how important the relief (third) function is in the function ordering in order to bridge this divide and the general importance of a well-developed Fe in its social balm role.

    Relief functions (this makes the most sense to me for ENFP/ENTPs and may apply to the INPs too with their aspirational (fourth) functions). Ne Fi/Fi NE can come off really poorly across this divide when accompanied by poor Te. Stronger Te helps the individual detach, regain objectivity and present their views, particularly on a fuzzy internal process better. The detachment is key in order to stay objective. Without this detachment, we stay focused on the N of 1 = me. This works well in some circumstances because we may choose to surround ourselves with people similar to us and get feedback that we're able to read others' emotions well. In this case, we may be because the internal logic is similar. On the other hand, the process used (depending on Si for NFPs which implies examining the data we have collected using past experiences) will tend to work better, as it does in most cases, with a larger sample and examination of the general trend and outlyers.
    Thus, when said person come across a Ti user with supporting Fe, if you don't have much past experience with them, you haven't examined them and their internal logic being different (Ti dominant) or if you've chosen to ignore that data, the understanding of this Ti user will likely be poor. It's all math, baby.
    Result: projection of sincere internal analysis on to a circumstance that is not like. Fail in terms of empathy (not able to put ourselves in their shoes - wrong size/color/make) and failure to meet our goal of providing comfort if we don't listen to the subject telling us we are not doing this well or that this comforting style is not desired.

    Similarly, Ne Ti can come off really poorly to other peeps if accompanied by poor Fe. The social balm is clearly important. As OneMoreTime said, both sides are clearly interested in the well-being of their friends/conversation partners. Why is this so poorly expressed by support Fe users? A poorly developed support or auxiliary function implies poor communication in a social context (Not unclear, mind you but ineffective. If the goal is to discuss an interaction - whatever sort it may be, with a friend, acquaintance, colleague etc, Fe is really useful in getting the other side to see where the Ti dom/aux is coming from. The mirroring is exactly the social balm needed for this purpose. It is the language in which the message is expressed. As all Fi doms/auxs here acknowledge, that is important to us. This may be influenced by Si too - a Ti dom/aux's data bank also contains data on past interactions. When the Ti dom/aux only pays attention to their small sample that they choose to interact with more closely, said user also bases mirroring on poor sample. In addition, ignoring outlyers (Fi dom/auxs) or not listening to how Fi doms/auxs are describing their internal logic = Fe mirroring fail.
    Result: Poor understanding of Fi dom/aux internal logic leading to poor communication of message/advice by Ti dom/aux due to poor language skills when faced with an Fi dom/aux audience.

    So, all that to say that better developed relief functions help.

    3. Fe is useful for all right? We're all here to gain more insight into being more effective in our communication across type. Fi/Ti dom/auxs could both use better Fe to communicate. Having already discussed the advantages for the Ti doms/auxs, I'll touch on the benefits of Fe for Fi doms/auxs. Peeps - we want to help. We (Fi doms/auxs) too want to work on prevention (as Proteanmix and Fidelia so elegantly described in their storm/stones analogies). Our method, however, is clearly different. We like to understand the internal emotional (Fi) logic that puts the subject in that path of the storm. That, to us, is essential because we perceive the purely diversionary route of storm avoidance as treating the symptoms and not the cause of the problem (as Amar put it very well already). However, with poor Fe, we may be very in touch with our own internal processes but likely poor listeners and thus quite ineffective in exactly what we want to achieve - alleviation of the discomfort we perceive the subject experiencing or heading towards. Ironic and hypocritical for those of us who are so adamant about our individuality We may also miss when people are telling us they don't want us to engage them in this manner - on an emotional level. Continuing in spite of these protestations is disrespectful.

    Warning - short detour:
    Like the Ti doms/auxs who are fascinated by the internal logic of ideas/gadgets/general mechanisms (logical consistency in particular) while others (not particular to any type) may be less concerned with the same. Others may be more concerned with the outward utility of the same. How useful is the idea/gadget/mechanism to society/me? Less focus on the "art" or "science" and more on the practice.

    Similarly, Fi doms/auxs are fascinated by the internal emotional logic that spurs human interactions/behavior. We're concerned with the external manifestations as well but really moved bythe internal emotional process. That's what drives us. Types that don't share this interest/passion are similarly going to be focused on the external manifestations - the interactions alone. Thus when these disparate types meet, it's awkward and confusing because what moves us is quite different. Also when we're talking about human interactions, we share a common empathy with our Fe spurred NF brethren, but we still lack common interests/goals, one focused on external harmony and the other more on consistency between internal and external harmony.

    Small note, there are no pure Fi or Ti users as has been pointed out to me a bazillion times on these boards. We all use Fi and we all use Ti.

    As a practiced Fe user, Qre:ues put it, even if we don't intuitively get each others' methods, a little benefit of doubt regarding motives, some patience and valuing of the skills of each side could go a long way in bridging this divide.

    Peace Out Homies!

  7. #277
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    like this thread is going on in the seedy underbelly of the city... you gotta watch your back.
    Just have someone hand out hazmat suits to all those who want to wade through all posts

    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  8. #278
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    infj
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Just have someone hand out hazmat suits to all those who want to wade through all posts

    maybe it's my upbringing but those suits make me think of november 5, 1955. also, just waking up and checking now, it's possible that i'm wearing calvin klein underwear!

    moving on, what's difficult is that Fi as a social function takes things personally. and that's part of its job. bc of no one takes anything personally and relates communication to their own integrity as a whole, according to what their experience has taught them is right or wrong, the more rampant Ti becomes, gets to run unchecked. also, Te and Fe without Fi are just methods, they're just externality without anything underneath. it all fits together. the search for authentic expression of Fi's unique awareness is a fundamental process in emotion, relational truth, social experience, etc. it checks for, cultivates, and searches for truth in this realm of experience. as an introverted function, it's also the memory of emotion, a sort of social anchor in that regard that remembers its own truth apart from what everyone else says is true.

    but part of me also keeps thinking i'm slipping into specific enneagram types when i say this. understanding the difference between 9 and 4 infp seems crucial to understanding how Fi is used, what it monitors, what kind of awareness it becomes, and what its best skills are. and 7s for enfps. it has a different role in the overall psychology of each type.

    i still have no fucking idea how to talk about what it is, tho. what kind of organization it imposes, how it judges, what form it takes, how its understanding is translated into language, why Ti feels more naturally direct, focused, specific, causal, etc. somehow Fi judges a wider range of non-linear relationships, takes the whole web as good or bad. but what is its criteria? what creates good vs bad? and how is this different from Ti as correct vs incorrect?

  9. #279
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i still have no fucking idea how to talk about what it is, tho. what kind of organization it imposes, how it judges, what form it takes, how its understanding is translated into language, why Ti feels more naturally direct, focused, specific, causal, etc. somehow Fi judges a wider range of non-linear relationships, takes the whole web as good or bad. but what is its criteria? what creates good vs bad? and how is this different from Ti as correct vs incorrect?
    I like this thread because it has people describing how they, as individuals, experience their functions. You can count on me to be long-winded anyway

    However, this thread,
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #280
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Ergophobe: Thank you for your long post. When I said pretentious, I certainly meant that it seems to me like Fi users feel like their conclusions should be given more merit, as many believe that they are top-notch emotional analyzers. Fi can be presumptuous, sure, and that's perhaps a corollary to pretension, but there is also a distinct haughty aura that I've seen Fi users emit. Again, the negative aspects of Fi are usually attributed to a lack of balance with the other functions, as you've pointed out so well in your post. I think we'd all agree that any unbalanced functions aren't particularly fun to deal with.

    However, as for your claim that we all use Ti and we all use Fi, I don't really agree with this. I don't believe that Ti/Fe users can use Fi and that Fi/Te users can use Ti. The two systems are just so fundamentally contradictory.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    moving on, what's difficult is that Fi as a social function takes things personally. and that's part of its job. bc of no one takes anything personally and relates communication to their own integrity as a whole, according to what their experience has taught them is right or wrong, the more rampant Ti becomes, gets to run unchecked. also, Te and Fe without Fi are just methods, they're just externality without anything underneath. it all fits together. the search for authentic expression of Fi's unique awareness is a fundamental process in emotion, relational truth, social experience, etc. it checks for, cultivates, and searches for truth in this realm of experience. as an introverted function, it's also the memory of emotion, a sort of social anchor in that regard that remembers its own truth apart from what everyone else says is true.
    This is really good. Ni/Fe ftw. I definitely agree that Fi has its place in society. I've already expressed my belief (if not in this thread specifically, then elsewhere) that if the world was populated exclusively by a bunch of Ti users, it'd probably be a pretty ugly place. There'd be a lot less flowers and hugs, and we all love flowers and hugs, right? I just don't believe that unbalanced Fi meshes well in any part of society, but I'll refrain from being redundant.

Similar Threads

  1. [Fi] NTJs: how does Fi manifest in your type?
    By Venom in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 02-07-2009, 05:08 PM
  2. [Fi] Fi building
    By BlueScreen in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-01-2009, 03:09 PM
  3. [Fi] What does "Fi" really look like?
    By INTPness in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-25-2009, 02:36 AM
  4. [Fi] Fi -- Why does it drive you nuts?
    By CzeCze in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 164
    Last Post: 11-17-2008, 08:47 AM
  5. [Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it
    By SillySapienne in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 649
    Last Post: 11-09-2008, 11:05 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO