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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #261
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Well I'm trying to think of what this could possibly correlate to. AFAIK those who were defending it a lot from Fe users were enneatype 4's? Correct me if I'm wrong. That would mean that they have probably made the definition of Fi apart of their being and individuality; which is what being a 4 is about. So they probably don't want something that is apart of their being changed by someone else; and they probably think it's perfect in every way deep down. But they don't want to express that in front of the Ti users here. Having that part of themselves ripped to shreds logically would be a difficult thing for them to endure, so they lash out. There is no other reason I can see as to why they would take it so personally.
    I feel an inherent sense of clinging to authenticity. In the past I have valued authenticity and honesty to myself above most everything. Perhaps Fi defines us, thus to not defend it is to not defend ourselves? I dunno...lashing out is tert Te though. 4 sounds most familiar to me.

    Ne doms hate rejection more than anything. So perhaps for NeFi, critical attack of Fi, feels like rejection of them as a person. Admitting an Fi flaw is like admitting you are flawed a a human. Like attacking a Ti generated idea of an ENTP perhaps?

    My Fi is all fucked up, but these threads that offer Fi critique still can be hard. Even talking to my IRL entp about Fi can be hard. I have to revert to Te and logical analyze Fi like it is a isolated creature to learn lessons. It emotionally hurts if I extend Fi to care for another and am rebuffed. I do not understand why. When this happens I dont feel like I was being offensive or trying to control another-only extending pure love and caring. I just refrain from offering Fi mostly. (dude, even writing this makes me want to tear up a bit-urggghhhh)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Another thing to keep in mind is that I would guess that I_FP Fi would be more ready to improve itself in this manner than E_FP Fi. This is because of the function's placements. I_FPs lead with Fi, meaning it's a lifestyle of sorts and a default thing to fall back on. This is an internal process, just like any other dominant function. You generally see I_FP's Fi expressed through Se or Ne. So what I'm trying to get to is that the I_FP's Fi is very personal and internal as a process.

    However, for E_FP's Fi, it's different. The second function is directed towards people, it has a "parent" or advice role. It can get overprotective and over critical at times. I still don't understand how Fi could be used this way in any good way to be honest. I cannot grasp the concept of 2ndary Fi. I would guess though that it would be using the other person's inner emotions for the E_FP's whims. Whether that be helping them with the feelings, or using the feelings of others to get gain for themselves. So I would say it's easy to see how they could be tagged as pretentious.
    ewwww.... that sounds yucky BC.

    I think enfps want to help people become something more, see them happy, not control them. Why...? We mirror their emo, so a happy person means a happy enfp. Yet we have a cute judgemental Te lurking inside of us. So we have a set of Te standards we apply to what we would like to see them become. (We almost always fail our own standards btw.) We endless adjust those standards for others-ie endlessly forgive, recognizing each person is unique.

    We like to help them grow into whatever THEY want to be, within our Fi/Te framework, where, from what I understand, an ENFJ wants them to grow into what the ENFJ thinks they SHOULD be. (warning-very, very limited enfj data set IRL, so not even sure that is right, apologies if fucked up, please correct)

    On another Fi/Te combo person all of the above works okay. So we get 50% of the population.

    We sort of stumble by with the Fe doms and auxs. I think IRL both sides think they are communicating and lose info in translation. We also annoy the shit out of each other as can be seen here over and over again. My best lessons are from Proteo describing rude Fi behavior.

    With Ti doms, it just doesnt seem to reach extreme frustration. With my ISTP ex, I just never let him see Fi. ever.

    The worst is with the EXTPs. Couple of reasons I think:

    1. We use Te as the toolkit to "help". Te sounds very controlling and bossy. For me Fe tries to tell me how to feel and I rebel. I'd make a wild guess that maybe Te feels like it is trying to tell Ti how to think? My EXTPs despise Te.

    2. The Te/Fe defensive reactions. My Fi gets poked, I lash out with Te. The EXTP then defends with Fe trying to regain control starting a downhill cycle.

    3. Fi is some weird ass shit. It is a metaphorical mist that permeates others kinesthetically. I literally "feel" them, not see them. Today my ENTP was baffled-every Fi user she asks a set of Qs to gave her the same answer. WTF? How can Fi really be the same for all of these people? Yet it seemed to be based upon a pool of enfp/istj users.

    I think Fi is super fuzzy. It is utterly, openly accepting of mismatch error. "meh, we are only 20% in agreement? yeah, we match!". So two Fi users can feel moderately different but still be okay with the unspoken assumption that they "feel" the same. Maybe this is true?? I dunno...maybe Fi is really that simple biochemically.

    Works great till you apply it to Ti which seeks utter precision in everything. I would guess that it is not a real "match" for Ti, unless it is a perfect match-which is impossible given the individual uniqueness inherent in Ti. Thus Fi plunges in, mismatches terribly, makes all these unspoken assumptions, then Te goes-"Ah, my Fi said you feel this(with a 20% match rate), so here do these things from my Te toolbox". Thus we fucked with Ti precision and Te powerplayed them all at once.

    They get a wee bit pissy bout this time.

    All this is super subconscious-so not really above radar honestly for most folks, so I dont think we are aware of what we are doing or why it is so very offensive to them.

  2. #262
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I do want to understand as well - however, I'm only going to understand where you're coming from when we're on the same page.

    Why does it seem like we're standing at a distance? We're engaging, no?
    I think that is the gist of the matter. What do you mean by being on the same page? Shouldn't the same page be some 'neutral' middle-ground?

    In order to engage in a discussion with a Ti-user, I would take the following steps :-

    i) Tone down my Fi
    ii) Translate my inner thought processes into Ti-statements that the other side can understand (not easy considering most of us don't have high Ti)
    iii) Filter the input I'm getting from the other side so that I know the statements are not meant to be personal attacks

    You mentioned reciprocating, but from what I have read in this thread, there is very little of that coming from the Ti-side. I see myself willing to compromise and meet the Ti-user halfway, but the Ti-user is still firmly on his side of the border, waiting for explanations to prove him wrong.

    I thank you for softening your responses and trying to 'speak' the Fi-language, but that is just half of the communication process. I am putting myself in your shoes and reading your responses through Ti lenses. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your statements are not meant to be personal attacks. Are you willing to give me the benefit of the doubt that my counter-arguments are not going to be 100% logical and will have holes in them without jumping on them and pointing out how 'wrong' I am? I might have a high Ti for an INFP but I'm never going to out-Ti you guys.

    Perhaps I'm wrong and other Fi-doms reading this have other impressions, but what I'm seeing is that the Fi-doms are unbending and trying to explain (and yes denying the OP is true is also a form of explanation) with their usually underdeveloped Ti. And since this fails to convince the Ti-user most of the time, the Fi-dom would just go back to our side of the border and draw up the defenses.

    Remember also that another use of Fi is to detect the sincerity of another person. If it is telling us (correctly or not) that you are not sincerely trying to understand, but looking for an admission of guilt instead, you can understand some of the reactions.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post

    Ne doms hate rejection more than anything. So perhaps for NeFi, critical attack of Fi, feels like rejection of them as a person. Admitting an Fi flaw is like admitting you are flawed a a human. Like attacking a Ti generated idea of an ENTP perhaps?
    Yes.

    My Fi is all fucked up, but these threads that offer Fi critique still can be hard. Even talking to my IRL entp about Fi can be hard. I have to revert to Te and logical analyze Fi like it is a isolated creature to learn lessons. It emotionally hurts if I extend Fi to care for another and am rebuffed. I do not understand why. When this happens I dont feel like I was being offensive or trying to control another-only extending pure love and caring.
    Yep

    I think enfps want to help people become something more, see them happy, not control them. Why...? We mirror their emo, so a happy person means a happy enfp. Yet we have a cute judgemental Te lurking inside of us. So we have a set of Te standards we apply to what we would like to see them become. (We almost always fail our own standards btw.) We endless adjust those standards for others-ie endlessly forgive, recognizing each person is unique.
    I definitely have lurking Te, and it's not so cute. Sometimes I've done the controlling thing (or at least I sound more controlling than I mean to). I also sometimes get frustrated with people who don't have developed Te - even though mine is tertiary - because I feel like they aren't being "realistic."

    Judging others for not being realistic! That's comedy gold coming from an ENFP but I'm still guilty of it.


    The worst is with the EXTPs. Couple of reasons I think:

    1. We use Te as the toolkit to "help". Te sounds very controlling and bossy. For me Fe tries to tell me how to feel and I rebel. I'd make a wild guess that maybe Te feels like it is trying to tell Ti how to think? My EXTPs despise Te.

    2. The Te/Fe defensive reactions. My Fi gets poked, I lash out with Te. The EXTP then defends with Fe trying to regain control starting a downhill cycle.
    This.


    All this is super subconscious-so not really above radar honestly for most folks, so I dont think we are aware of what we are doing or why it is so very offensive to them.

    You did a really great job in expressing all of this.

  4. #264
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    None expressly admitted it, either. Barriers are still up, and instead of learning from each other, we're still at the same old song-and-dance.
    Phrase this admission the way you would like to see it; I am curious and interested. What barriers do you think are still up?

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Here's the part I don't understand. Fi isn't real in and of itself. It's a conceptual framework for understanding a complex series of cognitive interactions, just like any of the other Jungian functions.
    This is a very wise thing you have said. Picking functions apart is like trying to un-bake the cake after it's been in the oven, is now iced and decorated for a birthday party!

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I also don't understand why if we have to speak in your language, you don't have to reciprocate.
    Ah, but later in my response I mention that I personally do make an effort to speak "your" language when in your universe! (In fact, I work with NT's as the majority of my profession, so trust me, I have learned to be well-versed in doing so.) BUT here, I am expecting you, as the person making the inquiry, to have the courtesy of extending yourself to the greater degree. After all, many Fi users here are going to a great effort to try to facilitate an understanding.

    If you are coming to my house, is it not polite to pay attention to the customs in my home? (Shoes off at the door, no smoking please, help yourself to anything in the fridge. ) Would you come in, drop your jacket on the floor and put your shoes on my coffee table?

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why does it seem like we're standing at a distance? We're engaging, no?
    We are engaging, but you are still looking for something that puzzles me. If you want me to say immature or inferior Fi users can be annoying, that's already been offered up. So say what you want. Specifically.

    ---------------------------------

    From my other example:

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Nope... but it's also not hard for me to say "the greater tendency men have for domestic violence or denigrating women is wrong, and I personally would be devastated to learn if I hurt someone by these behaviors"
    Let's try this: The tendency for Fi users to misread emotional states can be statistically significant dependent upon the level of skill, maturity and corroboration utilized during the use of the function. Fi users would be devastated to learn if, in misinterpreting another's emotional state, they were to cause harm to said individual.

    Is that what you are looking for? Because to say we would be devastated is no exaggeration; it makes me feel ill in the pit of my stomach thinking about it.

  5. #265
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've been saying this for months. It's absolutely true. Even more infuriating is when they talk about how they'd never push their values on anyone else because Fi is totally against that! But they're still damn sure that they know everything you're feeling better than you do, and if you disagree it's only further proof that they were right.
    everyone who thinks he/she is right does this to some degree. that goddamned smug i'm so smart expression. infps can be 100% certain they KNOW, no matter what the other person says to try to change their mind. entps do this too. it's probably a function of Ne mis-identification as much as an inherent Fi quality. not to mention all functions are subjected to this kind of mistake when they stop listening, assume they know, and make an ass of themselves. my way involves excessively skewed filtration, bizarre Fe projections, and Ti de facto "idiots!" resentment/frustration. plus it can get pretty cutting. and i think i'm so fucking charming/perfect/always right. ego.

    i think e4s are more of the frustration for others, as it often feels impossible not to step on their toes, upset their values, etc. e4 feels pretentious to me, in the sense of the first definition presented (but so what). i (me) have to believe in the grandeur of what i'm doing, bc i spend a lot of time dwelling on the worst. it's awful. myopic. disgusting. counterphobic. (but, it's that) e4 takes care of a lot of the shit other types can't deal with adequately. so fuck off (which can be the mentality, at times). and it's just my wing.

    i like to think i'd grant license most of the time, but it is frustrating to deal with at others. it's the stubbornest fucking thing in the world. it defaults as pure resistance to the group (nothing wrong with that), except that groups are the fundamental unit of human life, culture, activity, etc. they make themselves outsiders, rejects, etc, to deal with those contradictions. some learn nothing. some solve the problems of the self. flip a coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I just read through the last few pages of the discussion that I missed during the course of the day. As a Fe user, I too have sometimes run into the issue mentioned in the OP and so this subject is of interest to me. While I do not believe that this is a general Fi user characteristic, I have experienced Fi users who erroneously believe they can read my feelings without stopping to further inquire whether they have all the information needed and if they are interpreting it correctly. On the other hand, I have also experienced Fi users who have very correctly been able to figure out what true motivations/feelings of people around them (including myself) have been. I believe this is mostly due to the experience of the person using Fi and also their willingness to accept that they could be mistaken or that Fe users appreciate them checking to see that they are correct.
    yeah, they get cocky. just like Ni does. you stop taking in new information and relying on the perception or the truth (Ji!) has created, you become dumb pretty damn quickly. intelligence is based on/IS feedback loops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Thanks Fidelia

    Tesla, one more thing..I know you don't wanna discuss how you formulated the OP..an I think you should revisit. The reason? You don't seem to realize how important that is. What Peacebaby said, you didn't consider substantial. While to me, that was the core of why you got jumped all over. Those are not neutral words. Those words tend to just irritate anyone if applied to them, in normal conversation.

    As for us, Fi is very hard to translate in words. For that matter, precise language is mostly used be Ti. And the fact that Fi-users cannot formulate correctly what *exactly* they are feeling seems to be part of the problem. I actually *learned* on here (thanks to, amongst others, and shockingly, Bluemonday and other NTPs) to differentiate between the gut feeling, the interpretation you make, the background story that goes about it, and the action you can take with this stuff. For me, this was all one big bubbly cauldron. It still is. I had no clue what I did, I just did it and even nowadays I have to make a conscious effort to seperate it. To compartmentalize like that, is something you need to learn. And those who haven't been actively trying to take their Fi apart, don't realize that. It also means they are less accurate in expressing what they mean. They sense anger and their first reaction is: you must be angry with me, otherwise, why would you express it? While you might be angry of a situation, the way the convo is going, another person, etc etc. It's like an inexperienced Ti user tossing out his craziest new idea. It might have merrit, if he thought it through more. Instead, you piss people off coz you waste their time with something that's clearly got flaws everywhere still. Fi is fuzzy that way, not specific, it takes sifting through to get to what *actually* is going on. Also, without further info, Ne goes wild on interpretations which is the real problem. As Fi is so vague and it doesn't get recognized a lot, you are almost prompted to come up with an argument to back it up, which, without additional info could be a score or flatout wrong. And then, it still requires eloquence to bring it into words, as Fi is just not that translatable, so chances are that you botch this up while having the right idea, and still getting told you're wrong. Add debate-pressure to the mix and that just goes out the window. I like Fidelia-Udog's Car metaphore for this definitely. Realize that when you get a response like that, it's probably just badly formulated. There's probably truth to the core and plz, take a moment to see if their 'premise' has merit
    but for a T these questions of how you take it are your own problem and your own responsibility. they are "incorrect" responses. pointless. your reactions/feelings are just getting in the way of the desire to discover truth.

    which is interesting, bc Fi and Ti are both the functions designed to create truth. but they are aimed at creating truths in different arenas. the social sphere needs both or it becomes highly imbalanced. Fi relates truth to the heart/body. which is me. and sometimes you. it creates relational awareness, knowledge, truth, etc. giant fucking webs of what's (been) good and what's bad, the morality/ethics of being as interpreted thru some sort of kinesthetic experience that fosters holistic reasoning, seeking expressions of this truth, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I cannot count the amount of NTs that have told me after the facts that I was 'in fact right' about my guess as much as they denied it at the time. That doesn't help. I think all Fi-users have had this experience at one time or another, which happens to strenghten our belief that you are in fact sometimes unaware of things that we pick up on, and therefore it's hard to take your word when you insist nothing is going on (see the example with denying anger, this however also happens with actual emotions that do influence you a lot). Now, I always try to keep in mind that I can be off, due to not fulfilling one of the 4 prerequisites, which i might not be aware of, but not all Fi-users are aware of those, as that comes with experience (hell, I might still be off and learning shit and find there are 6 instead of only the 4 I've discovered so far). So what I end up doing is, accepting what the person tells me (coz I know it doesn't help to argue, it just makes them defensive). But that hunch keeps jumping at me like a little alarmbel as an unresolved inconsistency. And it really takes effort to walk away from it and let it ring, coz I wanna help you figure it out. It's a mystery I wanna see resolved and I wanna give you that extra info to work with yourself as well. This can be annoying to my conversational partner, as I don't lie very well, or omit things well, so they can tell I am not entirely taking them on their word. Which can hurt. I at this point will try to explain to them why, and I do my best to ignore the bell and accept their explanation. I'll also be fully open to being wrong, and will let time tell what exactly the reason was for that alarmbell. Coz yeah..I have been wrong about the reason behind the bell. I've even been wrong about the kind of bell that went off (saw anger where there was frustration etc, coz those look the same, just the intensity varies a bit). It might have been a not so important bell which is why you didn't see it, and why I shouldn't worry about it, and I mistook it for important. I could be wrong that way.
    at times tho, the connections are so vague they often up and disappaer. my first gf was very loose in this regard, and i was much more skeptical of her perceptions. but damn did she make you feel like she understood all of your emotions, was 100% skilled in dealing with them, and recognized your moods, attitudes, and emotional outlooks far more than you possibly could (in a good way, feels very "safe"). one reason most of my best friends growing up were infps, they knew how to deal with my ascerbic nature, nudge me a bit, and most of all provide more skilled emotional awareness that was so necessary but unavailable to me.

    other nfs appreciate infps. there's no way around it. but at times, e4s especially, they feel so fucking weighty and drag down others, Fe especially, who are affected by their mood and energy. Fi and Fe are two parts to a process that is incomplete without both. we understand we pressure you unnecessarily as well. there is tension, which is why it works. checks and balances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Personally, I think that has to do with the fact that Fi is also never appreciated. Or so it seems. All people do is whine about it. Especially ENTPs, no offense. So at some point you go 'yeah yeah, we get it, you don't however, clearly!' and become defensive.

    As said before, maybe I'm biased, but Fi seems to be one of the least appreciated functions around. It's also not practical, doesn't deserve merit by being particularly useful to others, and when it is actually useful, it doesn't get acknowledged or it gets treated as nice 'luxury' to have (thinking art, music, hugging, fantasy books, lifting someone elses spirit, etc). It doesn't feel like it provides for the necessities in life, it doesn't help you in the real world, or so it seems, therefore it's not valued. On the contrary, it gets more press for being a burden and in the way of 'valuable' things than anything else. I get it, Fi is hard to pinpoint, to quantify, to put to use, and to even fully appreciate becoz it's so ellusive and highly individual, and therefore hard to grasp for those not employing it as much. It's not our fault that you have trouble seeing its merit though. And although some of the comments of how you perceive Fi definitely apply to immature Fi, some are so far off becoz of lack of understanding, it just makes you wanna roll your eyes, coz you know that explaining it wouldn't matter as you cannot prove your stance to them anyway. It's the proverbial dog who's seen a rainbow and who tries to convince other dogs it exists-thing all over again. Can you honestly blame us for our reaction?
    e4s are appreciated, they just want to become a work of art. so they are in constant trembling fear of rejection. they become cold to those they want to avoid, saving their strength for others.i see e9 infps as more under-appreciated. Fi is in the way of business, streamlining, hyper-efficiency, empty rituals, and all things inauthentic. Fi does realize relationships (read: truths) that other functions do not see. it's far under-appreciated in america(n institutions). we miss it too.

    i do think much of the perceived problem is with those who hyper-identify the self with Fi and avoid the other functions. it is really fucking difficult for all types to move on from this, and most of the bad apple stereotypes are exactly of this problem (just as they are with other types!!!!). fucking unchecked unbalanced teetering and tottering ego, too little information, no feedback, etc.

  6. #266
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Does anybody feel like strong Fi users are really pretentious when it comes to understanding emotions? It seems like Fi people constantly think they know how other people are feeling but are wrong many times. In my experience, Fi users seem to feel the overwhelming urge to convince me that I'm feeling a certain way.
    I find it funny that people so often talk of Fi users expressing how they think the other person feels on one on one. I very rarely do that.


    Just wanted to add that much in the same way being a TP doesn't mean you are a logical genius so does being an FP not mean you are a genius at understanding people.


    There is a very powerful dimension to people's personalities I would crudely call "wisdom" that makes all the difference. A wise ENFP could very well be the ultimate people's advocate, but most ENFPs are just average. It takes a wise person to make use of their type's capabilities to a good extent.

  7. #267
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Check out this link folks - great contrast seeing a (relatively) passive INFP and an (atypically) animated INFJ have a discussion.

    Lots of quiet INFP's like this guy running around in the world ... it's why this thread is so grating, because it tries to pigeon-hole a behaviour and isolate it to a single function. There's just so much more than a 2D interpretation of Fi.

    Anyways, not to inflame debate, just found it quite illustrative. Enjoy!

  8. #268
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    This thread still going? It's been off the tracks since the original post.

  9. #269
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    There are a lot of threads that seem aimed to push the "big red button". Of all the things to stereotype Fi as being, I think pretentious is one of the more sensitive spots since Fi has a great deal to do with authenticity. Pretentiousness by its nature implies the artificial. The same thing happens with critique of Fe. The very worst things you could accuse a Fe user of being are what are focused on. We also have some great button-pushing for the Ts as well. Why is this? It seems that the functions gone wrong thing is more the result of one function attempting to be expressed through another function, but that's just my impression and it could be wrong.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #270
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^indeed. And sorry to bring this thread back to life, I just couldn't resist. Ooooh I hope I don't have to pay for this later!

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