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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #251
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I really don't find Fi that terribly confusing. Why these Ti vs. Fi threads start and keep going like this confuses the hell out of me.



  2. #252
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Is there a specific question you have (or anyone has)? I was gone for the Christmas holiday (so I didn't really get involved in the thread in it's later stages) and I'm going to attempt to put a well thought out answer here.

    But I want a specific question.

    Any ideas? I tried to answer the OP, but it seems as though there is something else that is being asked at this point in the thread.
    Why does it seem like Fi must be uncompromisingly defended from all lines of questioning raised by Fe users, rather than use the recognition of those weaknesses as a means for self-improvement? Is this an Fi thing, or an FiTe thing? Why do we seemingly go through this same song and dance every time a poster dares not uphold Fi as the final arbiter of what is good and right in the world?

  3. #253
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I really don't find Fi that terribly confusing. Why these Ti vs. Fi threads start and keep going like this confuses the hell out of me.


    You and me both. From what I gather, some people are looking for that mystical pot of gold at the end of the rainbow though
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  4. #254
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why does it seem like Fi must be uncompromisingly defended from all lines of questioning raised by Fe users, rather than use the recognition of those weaknesses as a means for self-improvement? Is this an Fi thing, or an FiTe thing? Why do we seemingly go through this same song and dance every time a poster dares not uphold Fi as the final arbiter of what is good and right in the world?
    Well I'm trying to think of what this could possibly correlate to. AFAIK those who were defending it a lot from Fe users were enneatype 4's? Correct me if I'm wrong. That would mean that they have probably made the definition of Fi apart of their being and individuality; which is what being a 4 is about. So they probably don't want something that is apart of their being changed by someone else; and they probably think it's perfect in every way deep down. But they don't want to express that in front of the Ti users here. Having that part of themselves ripped to shreds logically would be a difficult thing for them to endure, so they lash out. There is no other reason I can see as to why they would take it so personally.

    And I'm not sure why this happens. The only reason why I'm here is for self improvement. As I have learned more about this theory, I have applied it to my life to avoid doing certain things. I'm not sure why anyone would do it any other way.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that I would guess that I_FP Fi would be more ready to improve itself in this manner than E_FP Fi. This is because of the function's placements. I_FPs lead with Fi, meaning it's a lifestyle of sorts and a default thing to fall back on. This is an internal process, just like any other dominant function. You generally see I_FP's Fi expressed through Se or Ne. So what I'm trying to get to is that the I_FP's Fi is very personal and internal as a process.

    However, for E_FP's Fi, it's different. The second function is directed towards people, it has a "parent" or advice role. It can get overprotective and over critical at times. I still don't understand how Fi could be used this way in any good way to be honest. I cannot grasp the concept of 2ndary Fi. I would guess though that it would be using the other person's inner emotions for the E_FP's whims. Whether that be helping them with the feelings, or using the feelings of others to get gain for themselves. So I would say it's easy to see how they could be tagged as pretentious.

    Ask anything if you want it cleared up... I feel that this post is incomplete but I want to throw it out there anyways.

    And if you disagree with what I said here, I don't really care. So don't waste your life. (That's expressing Fi through Se, expressing my inner feelings through making a noticeable impact on the environment )
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  5. #255
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Well I'm trying to think of what this could possibly correlate to. AFAIK those who were defending it a lot from Fe users were enneatype 4's? Correct me if I'm wrong. That would mean that they have probably made the definition of Fi apart of their being and individuality; which is what being a 4 is about. So they probably don't want something that is apart of their being changed by someone else; and they probably think it's perfect in every way deep down. But they don't want to express that in front of the Ti users here. Having that part of themselves ripped to shreds logically would be a difficult thing for them to endure, so they lash out. There is no other reason I can see as to why they would take it so personally.

    And I'm not sure why this happens. The only reason why I'm here is for self improvement. As I have learned more about this theory, I have applied it to my life to avoid doing certain things. I'm not sure why anyone would do it any other way.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that I would guess that I_FP Fi would be more ready to improve itself in this manner than E_FP Fi. This is because of the function's placements. I_FPs lead with Fi, meaning it's a lifestyle of sorts and a default thing to fall back on. This is an internal process, just like any other dominant function. You generally see I_FP's Fi expressed through Se or Ne. So what I'm trying to get to is that the I_FP's Fi is very personal and internal as a process.

    However, for E_FP's Fi, it's different. The second function is directed towards people, it has a "parent" or advice role. It can get overprotective and over critical at times. I still don't understand how Fi could be used this way in any good way to be honest. I cannot grasp the concept of 2ndary Fi. I would guess though that it would be using the other person's inner emotions for the E_FP's whims. Whether that be helping them with the feelings, or using the feelings of others to get gain for themselves. So I would say it's easy to see how they could be tagged as pretentious.

    Ask anything if you want it cleared up... I feel that this post is incomplete but I want to throw it out there anyways.

    And if you disagree with what I said here, I don't really care. So don't waste your life. (That's expressing Fi through Se, expressing my inner feelings through making a noticeable impact on the environment )
    Thanks. I really appreciate that answer. Lots to think about there.

  6. #256
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Man I'm gonna regret wading into this, but what the heck, always wanted to be assertive once a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Why do we seemingly go through this same song and dance every time a poster dares not uphold Fi as the final arbiter of what is good and right in the world?
    Add the words "to the Fi-user" at the end and you got it more correctly. It's about my personal values and there are probably as many personal values as there are Fi-users. It is my way of making a decision and every important decision I make is tied to it. If you attack the way I make my decisions, of course I will feel like you are attacking my integrity.

    Can the Fi lead to bad or wrong decisions? Yes, of course it can. It's not infallible and I don't see anyone here saying that if your decision is not made with Fi input then it's a bad one. I don't go around telling people "Hey, your primary function is wrong sometimes, why don't you try using more Fi? " We may be idealists, but we ain't pushy ones

    What I don't understand is why people are saying Fi-users wield Fi like it's an absolute truth for everyone? It's not logic where I can use it to convince others to think the same way. I'm not even trying to convert you to think the same way I do, unless it was really, really important to me. Look, I don't smoke but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell everyone to stop smoking because I don't like it.

    An INFP's main instinct is conflict avoidance. First choice is compromise, second choice is run away. Confronting something is almost always a final choice since it takes up a lot of energy and really drains us. That we keep defending ourselves fiercely should tell you how important this is to us and how strongly we feel that you are incorrect.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

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  7. #257
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Agreed.



    Agreed.



    A non-apology ... are you looking for an apology? If you were to provide a specific example that relates to us personally, that we were involved with, it would likely be pretty quick for an Fi dom to apologize. But it seems like you're asking all Fi dominant individuals to relate to and make concession for the alleged sins of the few. For example, it's like asking all men to apologize for the men who exhibit sexist behaviour or commit crimes or beat their spouses. Is it fair to lump everyone into a generic bucket like that?
    Nope... but it's also not hard for me to say "the greater tendency men have for domestic violence or denigrating women is wrong, and I personally would be devastated if I hurt someone by these behaviors"

    It hasn't even been determined that the guilty Fi users are specifically Fi dom. You are seeing immature or inferior Fi when it expresses in this way. We can all be guilty of this from time to time. I didn't see many (or any) here expressly deny it.
    None expressly admitted it, either. Barriers are still up, and instead of learning from each other, we're still at the same old song-and-dance.

    One distinction of note is the difference in enneagram types. For example I relate to a lot of what Amargith has posted, except for the negative emotions part of the ride. I keep this to myself, probably 99% of the time. Is that necessarily better or wise? Likely not. It's just that I value harmony and step back from creating unnecessary drama just because I feel bad. I dislike the ensuing conflict. Amar is a 4 wing and not afraid to go there. I as a 9 wing am.
    Gotcha.

    You have it in your lives in more that just your relationships with others. You possess it too, even if it seems an enigma to you. And mostly (I think) it is the language to explain the criticism that is more objectionable than any actual criticism per se. I don't walk around calling NT's arrogant pompous asses, because I think it disrespectful (even if you do not). So when you call Fi out in what are perceived derogatory terms, it is hurtful, even if you don't intend, acknowledge or understand this.
    Here's the part I don't understand. Fi isn't real in and of itself. It's a conceptual framework for understanding a complex series of cognitive interactions, just like any of the other Jungian functions. By its very nature, it's objectifying something, as an attempt to discuss it outside its personal impacts.

    I also don't understand why if we have to speak in your language, you don't have to reciprocate, getting to:

    When you visit a foreign country, do you expect them to speak English? Do you not try to understand the culture you are entering, try to "go along to get along?" If you are asking Fi doms for input, does it not make sense that in order to get the best result, you should be trying to relate from our perspective, not your own? Softer language, and some genuinely expressed desire to understand would go a long way!
    Agreed, to some sense. However, there have only been a couple of times in the thread where I've specifically left something pointed, and then, that's only because I was trying to send some emotionally charged information along with it. Usually, I'll edit my posts a couple of times to soften the impact.

    I do want to understand as well - however, I'm only going to understand where you're coming from when we're on the same page.

    Hey, Fi is feeling. Feelings are important. Just show respect for them and you will get so much input and cooperation you won't be able to keep up! When I poke my head in the NT forum, I use tools that help me relate to you, use logical arguments and frameworks. Why does the NT stand at a distance and still expect to understand?
    Why does it seem like we're standing at a distance? We're engaging, no?

  8. #258
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Mostly in the damage to relationships that can result. For example, my mom, an Fi user, will never admit she's wrong, even when presented with mountains of evidence. She's the epitome of "truthiness" - it's true because she feels like it should be. As a result, my brother can't stand being around her... and what's worse, she's completely oblivious to the whole situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What I'm looking for is a sense of recognizance "oh, wow, never saw it that way before, and now that I do, yeah, that's sorta fucked up". That's pretty much it.
    How about this:

    Regarding your mom's "truthiness." Yes, Fi has a tendency to filter out information that doesn't match its values. Fi also can be extremely stubborn when pushed... especially in the moment.

    I personally find that it is helpful if I'm given time to process contrary information. Some Ti users can push and require instant acknowledgment of illogical and imprecise thinking. Pushing too hard just triggers Fi's "I know what I know and nothing can change my mind" response. In the moment during a conflict situation, I'm often too busy processing the emotional content and monitoring responses to have enough bandwidth to work through all the logical implications and come up with counter-arguments. Fi isn't as tactically oriented as Ti is, and tends to turtle if it feels attacked unfairly.

    To a strong Thinking person, this can look like willful, illogical stubbornness. In some sense, it is. In another sense, it's a stop-gap measure used as a defense until the real processing can happen off-line.

    Also keep in mind that a lot of the data that Fi works on is subtle and non-verbal. It's difficult to express concisely and especially in terms that are satisfying to Ti. Just because the reasons for a decision cannot be verbalized doesn't mean that they can't exist and aren't rational.

    So, I agree that unbalanced Fi can come out as "truthiness" and that is, in fact, fucked up. I don't think anyone has been saying that Fi is special and can't ever hurt anyone.

    I think that many Fi users feel like Fi gets little respect and gets treated as inherently immature. I also think that Fi isn't trained as much in formal education as most of the other functions are. I can't help but suspect this leads to Fi seeming more threatening, since a greater number of people will experience it as unconscious and immature within themselves.

  9. #259
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    How about this:

    Regarding your mom's "truthiness." Yes, Fi has a tendency to filter out information that doesn't match its values. Fi also can be extremely stubborn when pushed... especially in the moment.

    I personally find that it is helpful if I'm given time to process contrary information. Some Ti users can push and require instant acknowledgment and illogical and imprecise thinking. Pushing too hard just triggers Fi's "I know what I know and nothing can change my mind" response. In the moment during a conflict situation, I'm often too busy processing the emotional content and monitoring responses to have enough bandwidth to work through all the logical implications and come up with counter-arguments. Fi isn't as tactically oriented as Ti is, and tends to turtle if it feels attacked unfairly.

    To a strong Thinking person, this can look like willful, illogical stubbornness. In some sense, it is. In another sense, it's a stop-gap measure used as a defense until the real processing can happen off-line.

    Also keep in mind that a lot of the data that Fi works on is subtle and non-verbal. It's difficult to express concisely and especially in terms that are satisfying to Ti. Just because the reasons for a decision cannot be verbalized doesn't mean that they can't exist and aren't rational.

    So, I agree that unbalanced Fi can come out as "truthiness" and that is, in fact, fucked up. I don't think anyone has been saying that Fi is special and can't ever hurt anyone.
    Thank you. I feel I understand a whole lot more now.

    I think that many Fi users feel like Fi gets little respect and gets treated as inherently immature. I also think that Fi isn't trained as much in formal education as most of the other functions are. I can't help but suspect this leads to Fi seeming more threatening, since a greater number of people will experience it as unconscious and immature within themselves.
    Perhaps this is so.

  10. #260
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I still don't understand how Fi could be used this way in any good way to be honest.
    Only seeking the opportunities/possibilities (Se/Ne) that jive with one's personal value system. Fi is still very much personal and internal as a process for EXFPs, I can assure you (well from personal experience anyway).

    If anything I would think EXFPs in a better position to use Fi for self-improvement since IXFPs are shackled by it being used more subconsciously (primary function) than consciously (secondary).


    In fact I see one's secondary function as much more of a world identity function than the primary seeing as the first one is just too much ingrained in our subconscious and skews our perception.

    I see the INTP as the theoretical scientist that can see new possibilities others often dismiss (using Ne) and the INFP as the artist who creates the often more original fantasy worlds (also using Ne). They do it in their own Ti and Fi ways respectively, but their lives are a lot more about thinking outside the box than the person championing a cause (ENFP using Fi) or the person engineering the mechanism based on a scientific concept(ENTP using Ti) (crude examples, I know).

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