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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #201
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Thank you Amargith, Fidelia, and proteanmix for your discussion of Fe/Fi. It's a nice step away from the hostile foot upon which the thread initially took off.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I know! I knew an ENTP once who made me feel bad. I want an official apology for all ENTP functions.
    This is something that I find interesting: the fact that most other types I know will willingly admit that their functions have obvious pitfalls, while Fi users have a really hard time admitting that Fi can cause problems. As an ENTP, I realize that my Ne/Ti can be really abrasive and harmful to those around me at times (regardless of whether that's my intent or not), and I understand that Ne/Ti really need a good splash of Fe to help me get along with people better.

    I see how Ti can just be too analytical to the point that nothing gets done and that it never really comes up with any answers and that Ne is just so out there that it doesn't know how to prioritize and has a hard time telling the difference between a good idea and a bad one. It's interesting to me that strong Fi users seem so unwilling to accept the fact that Fi has obvious pitfalls as well. Why can't you guys just agree that all functions, *including Fi*, can have negative consequences when used in copious amounts and without a balance from some other function(s)?

  2. #202
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Call out some specific examples. I dont think we perceive the damage you cite. Fi is pain averse-if we were aware we were damaging the other, we would care as it would make us feel bad. Not the annoying stuff-I know we are fucking hell annoying at times. But can you cite how this ends up damaging others?

    I once told proteo this-For me-Fi takes a massive amount of energy to use. Thus I think subconsciously my brain reserves it for things which will generate a very strong ROI. Baking cookies for the lady at church-nope. Saving fifteen folks jobs-yes.

    Does Fi damage via neglect or damage via intrusion?
    I would say that Fi damages via intrusion and not knowing when to neglect. I've had a lot of arguments with Fi users and a lot of really nasty things said of me by Fi users that have been pretty hurtful to me (and yes, NTPs do have feelings, so don't even go there) simply because they have a problem differentiating between cold-hearted bitch and rational.

    The intrusion is harmful because it causes fights that spiral into more and more hostility. We get defensive, and Fi users continue intruding to help us deal with the "emotions" that they see from us getting defensive. It's a continuous cycle, and it definitely pervades relationships in a negative way.

    When Fi is intrusive, it's like putting a band-aid on a wound that's not even there. You waste a band-aid and then you have to deal with the pain of ripping it off. Why would anybody want to deal with that adhesion pulling their hairs out if there's not even the slightest scratch to begin with?

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    This is something that I find interesting: the fact that most other types I know will willingly admit that their functions have obvious pitfalls, while Fi users have a really hard time admitting that Fi can cause problems. As an ENTP, I realize that my Ne/Ti can be really abrasive and harmful to those around me at times (regardless of whether that's my intent or not), and I understand that Ne/Ti really need a good splash of Fe to help me get along with people better.

    I see how Ti can just be too analytical to the point that nothing gets done and that it never really comes up with any answers and that Ne is just so out there that it doesn't know how to prioritize and has a hard time telling the difference between a good idea and a bad one. It's interesting to me that strong Fi users seem so unwilling to accept the fact that Fi has obvious pitfalls as well. Why can't you guys just agree that all functions, *including Fi*, can have negative consequences when used in copious amounts and without a balance from some other function(s)?
    Any positive or negative adjective in the English language can probably be applied to Fi at some time. I just thought your mission was pointless and a little whiny. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with taking the piss.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #204
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Any positive or negative adjective in the English language can probably be applied to Fi at some time. I just thought your mission was pointless and a little whiny. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with taking the piss.
    Whiny? a little
    Pointless? What's the point of discussing any functions anyway? Any discussions can have a point if the right people contribute and you define your goals/aims in the correct way.

    If the thread was "pointless", I don't think there would be over 200 posts on the matter with some very substantial conversations had.

  5. #205
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Call out some specific examples. I dont think we perceive the damage you cite. Fi is pain averse-if we were aware we were damaging the other, we would care as it would make us feel bad. Not the annoying stuff-I know we are fucking hell annoying at times. But can you cite how this ends up damaging others?
    Mostly in the damage to relationships that can result. For example, my mom, an Fi user, will never admit she's wrong, even when presented with mountains of evidence. She's the epitome of "truthiness" - it's true because she feels like it should be. As a result, my brother can't stand being around her... and what's worse, she's completely oblivious to the whole situation.

    I once told proteo this-For me-Fi takes a massive amount of energy to use. Thus I think subconsciously my brain reserves it for things which will generate a very strong ROI. Baking cookies for the lady at church-nope. Saving fifteen folks jobs-yes.
    You're pretty unique - that's what I like about you.

    Does Fi damage via neglect or damage via intrusion?
    Both.

  6. #206
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I would say that Fi damages via intrusion and not knowing when to neglect. I've had a lot of arguments with Fi users and a lot of really nasty things said of me by Fi users that have been pretty hurtful to me (and yes, NTPs do have feelings, so don't even go there) simply because they have a problem differentiating between cold-hearted bitch and rational.

    The intrusion is harmful because it causes fights that spiral into more and more hostility. We get defensive, and Fi users continue intruding to help us deal with the "emotions" that they see from us getting defensive. It's a continuous cycle, and it definitely pervades relationships in a negative way.

    When Fi is intrusive, it's like putting a band-aid on a wound that's not even there. You waste a band-aid and then you have to deal with the pain of ripping it off. Why would anybody want to deal with that adhesion pulling their hairs out if there's not even the slightest scratch to begin with?
    Can you elaborate on the cold hearted bitch vs rational part? Is this perhaps a Te thing that may not seem rational from a Ti perspective or is it a Te bitch slap defensively? Are they attacking you? Could be either. Iv'e done both.

    Funny, I never even tried to use Fi "on" NTPs till posting here and I got bitch slapped once. It hurt so, so much as NeFi seeks affirmation, so outright rejection is like having your NeTi ideas rejected, or getting kicked in the metaphorical testicles 47 times. It resulted in a prompt Te bitch slap/temper tantrum in return on my part which was immature.

    So the lesson-Never presume you understand what the Fe user feels/thinks.

    yup to the "emotions". When my entps get "emo" I give them space. It does "feel" annoyed and irritated from my perspective, obviously something is up with them. I have never asked nor dug, however as a wacked Te using ENFP, this works out well as I dont want to talk about feelings either...

    Thanks for being open to the discussion.

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Whiny? a little
    Pointless? What's the point of discussing any functions anyway? Any discussions can have a point if the right people contribute and you define your goals/aims in the correct way.

    If the thread was "pointless", I don't think there would be over 200 posts on the matter with some very substantial conversations had.
    It's amazing how far an argument can get you . You can't make the generalisation for or against. ie. you can't say Fi does this or doesn't. Some people who use it will, some won't.

    There have been good points in this thread from both sides, but they don't really resolve it, which you have realised. They don't resolve it, because it won't be resolved. Some who do it will say "wow, that is me", some who don't will say "what are you talking about?". Some who do might try to hide it and not deal with it, and you might be hoping they coming around. I quite like the thread, because a lot of interesting stuff comes out in the arguing.

    p.s. I'm an ENFP, not a strong Fi user. I'm voting independent. Some of the Fi comments are obviously over the top and reactionary. I focussed on the other because it was less obvious that both sides are. Fi can be the most annoying function on Earth. It can be too idealistic, stubborn, etc. It is not poor at visualising situations. And I feel compelled to point that out, like the other Fi users, because if you make the assumption that it is inherently missing something major too often, you will get grilled when they stop playing. They will miss something you see, you will miss something they see. Both are a complete vision though, in their own way. If they adapt for you, you adapt for them, something mutual is reached. Problem is resolved.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  8. #208
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    p.s. I'm an ENFP, not a strong Fi user. I'm voting independent. Some of the Fi comments are obviously over the top and reactionary. I focussed on the other because it was less obvious that both sides are. Fi can be the most annoying function on Earth. It can be too idealistic, stubborn, etc. It is not poor at visualising situations. And I feel compelled to point that out, like the other Fi users, because if you make the assumption that it is inherently missing something major too often, you will get grilled when they stop playing. They will miss something you see, you will miss something they see. Both are a complete vision though, in their own way.
    I cant emphasize this bolded part enough-however to hell with applying it to people. ewww. Instead apply FiTe to people contaminated problems. Ti, from my perspective, is utterly beautiful in resolving pure problems and building perfect systems. However having NeTiFe systems builders combined with NeFiTe troubleshooting/duct tape/pothole detection capabilities makes for the best solutions.

    Also my newest project is "away from" vs "toward" meta programs in NLP. I am away from-ie pothole detection. My ENTP is towards, thus endlessly optimistic. You need a combination me thinks.

  9. #209
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    So, I'm curious, do you get this experience with TJs as well as FPs? Because you're talking about the function Fi, which applies to them as well.

    When I rant about shitheads without integrity, that's my Fi.
    Run for your life.

  10. #210
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The benefit is seeing the inside and knowing what it's made up of. Understanding it. Next time you come across a similar tornado, you'll know how to handle it and can take a passenger to share the experience with. Also, often you'll find a treasure inside. A pearl of wisdom. A greater understanding. On top of that, it's a thrill to stand in the eye and not get harmed while getting the rush of being there. Also realize that often, I don't have a choice, or so it feels. I'm drawn to intense emotion, so I automatically find myself in its way. Or, if it hits me unexpectedly, there's no running from it, coz I'll be running from it forever. It's like running from yourself. This could have something to do with the fact that Fe actually navigates the outside world, which allows for prevention and avoidance of these situations, whereas Fi doesn't realize it's in that storm till it's too late. It would stand to reason then that you guys get good at prevention and I would know how to ride the wave after enough experiences.
    Amargith has already made so many pertinent points that I'll just borrow and echo some of her stuff

    About the need to dive into the negative emotions, I think of it like innoculating against a disease. What doesn't kill you make you stronger, etc, etc...

    Most of the time INFPs are laid-back, but when something touches a chord, it resonates intensely. It's a two-edged sword. You can't fully feel the thrill of victory if you have never felt the agony of defeat. Does that mean I'm happy about it? Hell no, but I just have to learn to live with it.

    To answer the OP, I rarely tell people how I think they are feeling or try to fix their emotional problems, unless they 1) are on the very short list of close friends I have and their 'pain' is leaking to me, or 2) specifically ask me for my help. As many have pointed out, an INFP trying to impose his/her values on you is not a typical INFP. I would love it if you could understand or respect where I'm coming from, but I'm certainly not going to make you feel like me! I'm not even certain I want to feel like me!

    Now excuse me while I go and wash my Fi-car. It's been a mess driving through the emotional morass of the first 20+ pages of the thread
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

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