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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #181
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I actually had an interesting debate with Proteanmix about this recently. We were trying to figure out the exact difference, where we split ways. The usual came up, focus on group vs focus on individual, how both can seem selfish to the other, social conventions feeling restrictive vs being beneficial, who has the best use of their F to counsel, and how each function goes about it etc. So one of the questions was...how do we disable that resentment between the two and appreciate each in it's own right.

    And one of the things we came up with was...
    Yeah, that was a good conversation and I had a lot to think about over the last couple of days regarding this. I mostly agree with your summary, but of course I am one Fe user and others may not share my perspective.

    I do want to clarify this part of the conversation a little bit more with additional thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Fe-users, again, from what I hear, have the ability to be flexible in their feeling-use. They vary intensity and synchronize it automatically with the person/group in front of them. This means that if they have an emo-ing Fi-user in front of them, they can match their intensity and will do so. However, they prefer emotions to be more moderate as it's better for group harmony, and gives them more of a sense of control over the situation. From what I hear, intense emotion also tires them out, even one on one and they prefer getting people to harmonize together in a group and have a warm steady flame going there (whereas I prefer a roaring fire in one person). They will therefore be more prone to pulling the plug on intense emotion and find a way to soothe it to a more moderate level. That means that the person who is emoting negative emotions will find relief as the emotion will be soothed and directed towards that warm fuzzy flame that Fe-users prefer. If that's not possible though, they'll rather find a way to 'not feel' at all, and therefore removing the (to them) harmful emotion in some way, than to stay there, effectively preferring being emotionless to feeling negative emotions, something I would never do as it a) makes me feel dead inside and b) is playing ostrich politics, imo, and pretending that the emotion won't influence you and you won't have to deal with it if you just pretend it's not there. However, I have seen it be succesful for problems that weren't deeprooted, and weren't in need of deep analysis, so I do recognize that it has its uses and has the added benefit of keeping you functional and able to deal with other potential problems that are also part of the situation. Introspection requires time, and effectively puts you into stasis for a while, which can be impractical at times as well as make you overanalyze and overcomplicate things.
    I'm still not quite understanding and these are just my observations even based on descriptions from the "Fi is" thread the seeming obsession of Fi with negative emotion. I guess the converse of that can be that Fe's seeming antipathy towards negative emotion.

    I'm probably going to confine further discussions of this aspect I've noticed with Fi to those who I feel can maturely discuss such things without going off the rail. I felt like your replies were honest and measured and there was a good vibe going on and I did get some understanding that I didn't have before.

    But about the bolded stuff above, I feel like I should explain a bit better what I meant. Once again, this is just me.

    I tend to have a focus on preventative measures rather than actual problem solving. I'm pretty vigilant towards sniffing out potential pitfalls and educating/warning people about it rather than fixing it. Increasing my problem solving skills is something I'm working on though. I notice people don't particularly like to hear things that are ominous in nature; it's often construed as negative and paranoid rather than something that could potentially happen that should be taken into consideration. So I've learned to keep those kind of thoughts and declarations to myself. I'm not an EP so I don't completely rely on extemporaneous responses, but if I think of quite a number of possible outcomes I still feel mostly prepared. I think some of this is that you're an EP () and I'm an EJ, I'm still by nature more cautious than you are and hence my hesitations.

    About intense emotion: I'm told I vibrate at a rather high frequency and I don't consider myself a particularly mellow person. I'm pretty whooshy and forceful and that has it's pros and cons. I'm not adverse to intense emotion, but I am sensitive to certain types of intensity. If someone has a dark cloud of despair hovering around them I don't go towards that. Well let me be more specific, I make distinctions between the clouds. If you have two dark and threatening looking clouds I try to figure out which one is a summer rain and which one is going to produce a destructive tornado. I don't move towards the one I think is going to kick out a tornado. I'm not a storm-chaser and I am perfectly content to let it do it's thing while I take shelter. Storm-chasers are important they give us insight about the inner workings of a dangerous phenomenon and increase our knowledge. But I still think they do a dangerous thing and need to respect the unpredictable nature of powerful negative emotion and how destructive it can be. So I think the "not feel anything at all part" isn't entirely accurate. I don't want to be disconnected either, but I take great care with the nature of the connection so as not to get a power surge and overload my personal circuits.

    So yeah, I agree with Fe being a surge protector and Fi steps in when the surge happens, but both need some electricity to function. Both are rather pointless without an energy feed.

    I understand some people are attracted to that and want to investigate it. I don't advocate people being in denial about their emotions, that's something I'm not for because it tends to create more problems and a bigger mess to clean up. At the same time, I feel no need deep sea dive into every emotion I have or those emotions of others. I was kind of wondering about this in connection to emotional resiliency and do you need to know every detail of your (negative) emotions in order to find worth or wisdom without going that deep into it? I think I've said this before but not everyone who wants to dive that deep or soar that high can do it even if they think they can. I find that there's got to be emotional hardiness and fitness necessary (and you mentioned learning how to "wield Fi" which is some of what I'm getting at). Strong and resilient people can be found in any type, so I'm not sure if having Fi predisposes you to that emotional hardiness or not. I don't know if any cognitive function would be more capable of thriving in adverse conditions than another...each would have it's particular strengths and weaknesses. I know with me personally, I don't go there if I don't have to, but if I have to I will. I like watching scary movies but I wouldn't want to live in a nightmare or a war zone just for the emotional highs it brings. Overdose is quite possible.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  2. #182
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I think we got a pretty good explanation of Fi vs Fe going here, at least of yours and mine

    As for your last sentence, overdose is definitely possible, as I said, too many people at once or too much goign on at the same time, makes me lose focus and less able to deal with the intense emotion. I'm pretty sure emotional hardiness comes in all forms and shapes, from those that put it aside as irrelevant at this moment and deal with it later to those that consider emotion a byproduct that need not be considered (I'm not talking about being in denial and putting it aside out of fear now), to those that will tackle it head on.

    To drag another function into this, I think there's a lot of similarities to Fi and Se on this. I've been talking to some STPs as well, and it occurs to me taht the way they feel about physical thrills, I feel about emotional thrills. They love going 200 miles an hour if they can, or do circus stunts with an F-16 if they ever got the chance. Me personally, I'll be damned if I ever even attempt that. No thanks! For me however, it's a challenge to weather through an emotional tornado, as you called it, and my goal is to stand in its eye and behold it all. My guess is that Se users feel the same way: know the danger, want to observe it in awe and still be able to channel it and be in the moment. It's freeing.

    As for your question about wisdom. I find that the deeper I go, the more refined and detailed the wisdom I take away from it becomes. So yeah..to me it is worth it
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  3. #183
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Fi is a mesh. Ti is a singularity.

    Fi doesnt even understand why it would be pretentious to do what is perfectly natural to it-interpret others emotional response. It totally fucks up Fe, no doubt, but does okay with folks who use Fi. I have to use Te to shut Fi up, understanding it is incorrect. IRL, I dont use Fi with NTPs, on them, as that's just yucky. You just don't go there...

    Ti is...a singularity.

  4. #184
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm still not quite understanding and these are just my observations even based on descriptions from the "Fi is" thread the seeming obsession of Fi with negative emotion. I guess the converse of that can be that Fe's seeming antipathy towards negative emotion.


    I tend to have a focus on preventative measures rather than actual problem solving. I'm pretty vigilant towards sniffing out potential pitfalls and educating/warning people about it rather than fixing it. Increasing my problem solving skills is something I'm working on though. I notice people don't particularly like to hear things that are ominous in nature; it's often construed as negative and paranoid rather than something that could potentially happen that should be taken into consideration. So I've learned to keep those kind of thoughts and declarations to myself.
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  5. #185
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    Fi isn't sharing; it's judgemental. Things are correct or incorrect; right or wrong. It's a private pact with your own mind. It's all highs and lows.

  6. #186
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm still not quite understanding and these are just my observations even based on descriptions from the "Fi is" thread the seeming obsession of Fi with negative emotion. I guess the converse of that can be that Fe's seeming antipathy towards negative emotion...


    I tend to have a focus on preventative measures rather than actual problem solving. I'm pretty vigilant towards sniffing out potential pitfalls and educating/warning people about it rather than fixing it. Increasing my problem solving skills is something I'm working on though. I notice people don't particularly like to hear things that are ominous in nature; it's often construed as negative and paranoid rather than something that could potentially happen that should be taken into consideration. So I've learned to keep those kind of thoughts and declarations to myself. I'm not an EP so I don't completely rely on extemporaneous responses, but if I think of quite a number of possible outcomes I still feel mostly prepared. I think some of this is that you're an EP () and I'm an EJ, I'm still by nature more cautious than you are and hence my hesitations.
    This is what I've been hoping to have happen in a discussion!!! Thanks both of you for your thoughts!

    I have found it interesting to see in the Fi is thread how many people really identify with the artwork presented, which I find I don't relate to at all. A lot of it is dark and unhappy looking. As a Fe user, I don't believe I am of negative feelings. In fact, even though I am a positive person, I think I am actually rather realistic/melancholic and don't live in a world of rainbows. I am probably more drawn to the book that is life-ishly sad (though not hopeless) than the one that makes me laugh. However, I don't understand the deep sea diving into negative emotion. I guess Amargith has answered it by saying there is an Fi emotional equivalent of the Se physical thrill, and also that anything is better than not feeling intensely. That makes some sense to me and explains a lot.

    The second paragraph quoted above, I very much identify with. Most of my writing stems out of the deep pain I have experienced at seeing the potential and happiness of people close to me needlessly wasted. I want to serve as a kind of lighthouse to try to keep others away from the rocks that some of the ones I love have crashed on.

    My ENFJ mother has also always been the kind of person who is looking down the road, more outspoken than me, but compelled even against her better judgement to warn people of danger or pain that is ahead if they don't alter their course. This isn't something that either of us want to do. It comes with great personal cost. Even in the old days, prophets got stoned! People don't want to hear about it and deem you as negative, paranoid or critical, and then after the fact wish they had done things differently. Trying to warn people is not done out of a sense of wanting to control people, but rather out of a belief that prevention is better than reparation. Because of Fe, I believe that every decision an individual makes affects the people close to them. Therefore if they decide to go straight for the rocks, they take down others with them at the same time, many of whom drown or are hurt. While choices may be made by individuals, they do not affect only that individual. The stakes are so much higher than just wanting everyone to feel nice towards each other or be polite. Protean is absolutely right that Fe is geared towards prevention.

    I am realizing that many neither see prevention desireable or useful. They truly believe there is a need for us all to walk through everything that lies ahead rather than going around it. Obviously, since both functions have been distributed throughout the population there must be merit in both ways of seeing life, although ideally there would be a tempering of both views. All pain cannot be avoided, yet on the other hand, not all pain is necessary either. There needs to be a balance struck between the two. I'm wondering Amargith, if you would be able to explain the positive aspects of that more for me, because I think you have thought about it and can give me a better explanation than I can come up with by conjecture.

    I just reread Protean's post and realized that she also articulated something important. The main reason I see for not denying emotions is that it actually creates much more serious problems when you do. Again, it has to do with prevention, rather than with revelling or experiencing the emotion itself.

    One of the ideas from the Fe is thread that I think is worth reiterating is something Protean also talked about. That is the idea that Fe uses interactions with the group to learn about itself. I find that is one of the most satisfying and enlighting reasons for interaction. When I first had roommates, we all came with basic assumptions of what was normal (how to do the dishes, how to interact, how to handle conflict etc). It was only through seeing our similarities and differences that we had something to gauge our own perceptions by and also that we even realized what aspects that never showed up within our growing up homogenous family culture could be abrasive or different from each other. I experienced the same thing when I went to live in the States. I only realized what made my country distinct when I stepped out of my familiar environment where those things did not stand out in the landscape.

    I would take it a step farther and hypothesize that Fi focusses on self to learn about other people.

  7. #187
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The second paragraph quoted above, I very much identify with. Most of my writing stems out of the deep pain I have experienced at seeing the potential and happiness of people close to me needlessly wasted. I want to serve as a kind of lighthouse to try to keep others away from the rocks that some of the ones I love have crashed on.

    My ENFJ mother has also always been the kind of person who is looking down the road, more outspoken than me, but compelled even against her better judgement to warn people of danger or pain that is ahead if they don't alter their course. This isn't something that either of us want to do. It comes with great personal cost. Even in the old days, prophets got stoned! People don't want to hear about it and deem you as negative, paranoid or critical, and then come back after the fact and wish they had done things differently. It is not done out of a sense of wanting to control people, but rather out of a belief that prevention is better than repairation. Because of Fe, I believe that every decision an individual makes affects the people close to them. Therefore if they decide to go straight for the rocks, they take down others with them at the same time, many of whom drown or are hurt. While choices may be made by individuals, they do not affect only that individual. The stakes are so much higher than just wanting everyone to feel nice towards each other or be polite. Protean is absolutely right that Fe is geared towards prevention.
    I find the amargith/protean convo very enlightening as well. I think I have a fairly good handle of Fi because I've had a few INFP friends over the years.

    But I don't really feel like that about Fe. I don't think I use Fe like you mentioned. I don't feel compelled to use Fe to educate someone from going down a certain path to prevent them from something, even if I can see will likely happen. I use Fe more to relate in the moment with people, or to help people if they come to me with a problem. I'm not so........far-reaching? with my Fe. I'm definitely picky about who I give my Fe energy to. (Or I will use Fe to organize a potluck once or twice a year to bring the neighborhood together, but I suck at mingling).

    Why the difference in Fe use you think? I'm curious about the Fe differences.
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  8. #188
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Do you think it has to do with function order? On some tests my Fe comes out as the first function, even though I'm quite sure I'm INFJ.

    For me, a potluck would be at the bottom of my list unless there was a specific person I was doing it for. However, if someone suggested it I'd be fine with doing it. I don't know if I really use Fe when people come to me with a problem, although I might. How does that look when you do it? Some people would suggest that Enneagram differences might be responsible for different responses. I'm not sure how much I subscribe to enneagram, but I do know that the INFJs I know are all quite different.

  9. #189
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Fidelia, are you talking about the positive aspects of the balancing out of the two functions, or are you talking about the positive emotions?


    Coz I do wanna emphasize that although I might've put more stress on diving in the sea of negative emotions, the very same and more even is true for the positive side. It's just not as controversial. People understand why you dive into that.

    I've however found that the lines between bliss and torture blurr if you keep going long enough. I discovered so not by choice, but by accident. I learned that there is such a thing as an overdose of good emotions, and that it's both agonizing and painful as well as utter sheer bliss. And it is dangerously addictive and downright scary for most people as well as harmful if sustained. That's another thing. All of these emotions at its most intense are definitely harmful if sustained. Just ask people who are infatuated and unable to move the infatuation on to the next level. It's just utter, cruel torture. Yet soooo good.

    Same goes the opposite way. At some point you start relishing the negative emotions, they can become just as powerful and addictive as blissful ones, to the point where you no longer know if you actually love them or hate them. You start seeing their beauty, their power, their sheer rawness and get mesmerized by it.

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  10. #190
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you think it has to do with function order? On some tests my Fe comes out as the first function, even though I'm quite sure I'm INFJ.

    For me, a potluck would be at the bottom of my list unless there was a specific person I was doing it for. However, if someone suggested it I'd be fine with doing it. I don't know if I really use Fe when people come to me with a problem, although I might. How does that look when you do it? Some people would suggest that Enneagram differences might be responsible for different responses. I'm not sure how much I subscribe to enneagram, but I do know that the INFJs I know are all quite different.
    Yeah, I'm the same way about the enneagram. It just doesn't seem to work for me. I can be a 2 or 4 depending on the test. And the descriptions are dubious, imo, so that's not much help either.

    Actually, since you brought it up, it struck me as the way you were referring to Fe was more as a primary function. But I don't know too many infjs irl. The ones I know seem to stick more to themselves and shrug regarding others' mistakes; not surprised, yet not very inclined to get too involved on a grand scale. Perhaps Fe doms are different. I really know even less of those. I'm very curious about Fe doms because I've questionned if I'm more Fe dom myself, but I really don't think I am that extraverted regarding people. For me, it's more a very few close people I care about, versus the masses, unless I'm thinking a collective thought about the masses, like how we 'as a society' are, for example.

    I identify a lot with the esfj desription as well, which is Fe dom. I am very people-oriented, but on a small scale, not large one. And I'm pretty much an outside-the-box thinker, whereas esfjs like to follow more of a societal expectation.

    I'd like to hear more from the Fe doms regarding this exact facet of Fe.

    I see this thread is supposed to only be about Fi! So, I'm sorry to the op for getting off track onto Fe, but I was just happily following the tangent.
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