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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #161
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree with that. Sometimes Ti seems pedantic and out of touch with reality. Te seems more "useful" than Ti to me. I definitely value Ti, even admire it at times, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I think it's always "useful." It annoys the shit out of me sometimes, actually, and seems intellectually pretentious as opposed to emotionally pretentious. I actually think that Ti and Fi mirror each other in many ways, and this mirror both draws me and repels me when I find it in NTPs.
    That.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    That.

  3. #163
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Does anybody feel like strong Fi Ti users are really pretentious when it comes to understanding emotions logic? It seems like Fi Ti people constantly think they know how other people are feeling to draw a logical conclusion but are wrong many times. In my experience, Fi Ti users seem to feel the overwhelming urge to convince me that I'm feeling thinking a certain way. It can be kind of annoying at times, but maybe it's some times helpful?
    That was the other thing I wanted to do with the OP! Perhaps it was already done...

    We all have our blind spots; just need to learn to balance them out.

  4. #164
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That was the other thing I wanted to do with the OP! Perhaps it was already done...

    We all have our blind spots; just need to learn to balance them out.
    Yeah it's already been mentioned. I even touched upon this argument in my OP and how it's a bit irrelevant to the thread actually. Why don't you start your own thread on it? You can even use the template from my OP if you want .

  5. #165
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Well hey, I'm not reading 160 posts, I'm happy to move on from this thread. Ciao!

  6. #166
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well hey, I'm not reading 160 posts, I'm happy to move on from this thread. Ciao!
    Oh you can stay if you want. Just don't get offended when I note your repetition. It doesn't bother me; I just like making fun of people wherever I can.

    And plus you wouldn't have had to read through 160 posts. I mentioned in the OP that the counterargument using Ti is a viable one but a bit irrelevant to the topic at hand.

  7. #167
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I threw in the disclaimer at the start that I hadn't read all the posts, so no need to rub it in all the time, is there?

    I wanted to share my personal data on the topic in order to assist you. Having done so, I shall meet up with you in another thread sometime.

  8. #168
    Senior Member sofmarhof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Ti is widely recognized as 'useful' and 'logical' and gets a lot more credit than Fi ever does.
    I would never call Ti useful, in fact its complete non-usefulness it what I like about it. You know "art for art's sake"? Gautier said nothing useful can be beautiful. That's how I feel about Ti. That useful thinking isn't really thinking.

  9. #169
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I just read through the last few pages of the discussion that I missed during the course of the day. As a Fe user, I too have sometimes run into the issue mentioned in the OP and so this subject is of interest to me. While I do not believe that this is a general Fi user characteristic, I have experienced Fi users who erroneously believe they can read my feelings without stopping to further inquire whether they have all the information needed and if they are interpreting it correctly. On the other hand, I have also experienced Fi users who have very correctly been able to figure out what true motivations/feelings of people around them (including myself) have been. I believe this is mostly due to the experience of the person using Fi and also their willingness to accept that they could be mistaken or that Fe users appreciate them checking to see that they are correct.

    I believe though that Udog's distinction between Fi and Fi users is a useful one. It is like each function is a car, each with a different set of advantages and disadvantages as well as potential capabilities. While it is true that each car is distinct in what it offers, the driver of the car (ie user of that function) also brings their driving style and driving experience (or lack thereof). This driver influences how other people on the road view the capabilities and characteristics of that particular type of car (function).

    Amargith has done a good job of putting herself in other shoes, as well as respectfully explaining things from her perspective. As you have acknowledged yourself Tesla, Fi is a very useful function in its best form. It appears to me that what you are taking issue with is the inexperienced driver form of Fi, just as many Fi users regularly react to either a misconceived understanding of, or example of inexperienced driving with Fe. I liked the comparison between Fi and Ti that Amargith used.

  10. #170
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Thanks Fidelia

    Tesla, one more thing..I know you don't wanna discuss how you formulated the OP..an I think you should revisit. The reason? You don't seem to realize how important that is. What Peacebaby said, you didn't consider substantial. While to me, that was the core of why you got jumped all over. Those are not neutral words. Those words tend to just irritate anyone if applied to them, in normal conversation.

    Also, it's kinda ironic, that you are annoyed with Fi-users, especially those who..oh shall we say, don't communicate their gut feeling too well, since you yourself don't seem to grasp the necessity of using the right emotionally loaded words for a sensitive topic such as this.

    As for us, Fi is very hard to translate in words. For that matter, precise language is mostly used be Ti. And the fact that Fi-users cannot formulate correctly what *exactly* they are feeling seems to be part of the problem. I actually *learned* on here (thanks to, amongst others, and shockingly, Bluemonday and other NTPs) to differentiate between the gut feeling, the interpretation you make, the background story that goes about it, and the action you can take with this stuff. For me, this was all one big bubbly cauldron. It still is. I had no clue what I did, I just did it and even nowadays I have to make a conscious effort to seperate it. To compartmentalize like that, is something you need to learn. And those who haven't been actively trying to take their Fi apart, don't realize that. It also means they are less accurate in expressing what they mean. They sense anger and their first reaction is: you must be angry with me, otherwise, why would you express it? While you might be angry of a situation, the way the convo is going, another person, etc etc. It's like an inexperienced Ti user tossing out his craziest new idea. It might have merrit, if he thought it through more. Instead, you piss people off coz you waste their time with something that's clearly got flaws everywhere still. Fi is fuzzy that way, not specific, it takes sifting through to get to what *actually* is going on. Also, without further info, Ne goes wild on interpretations which is the real problem. As Fi is so vague and it doesn't get recognized a lot, you are almost prompted to come up with an argument to back it up, which, without additional info could be a score or flatout wrong. And then, it still requires eloquence to bring it into words, as Fi is just not that translatable, so chances are that you botch this up while having the right idea, and still getting told you're wrong. Add debate-pressure to the mix and that just goes out the window. I like Fidelia-Udog's Car metaphore for this definitely. Realize that when you get a response like that, it's probably just badly formulated. There's probably truth to the core and plz, take a moment to see if their 'premise' has merit

    Also realize that Fi-users have to go through two processes to translate their hunches:
    a) We have to learn social graces (Fe) to express it in an emotionally neutral way, or we present it, like you did your OP, and cause a ton of emotional upheaval. This btw, is not fun, coz it's like a bomb blowing up in our faces

    b) We have to learn Te, to be able to make Fi believable to others. To be accurate and eloquent about what it is we are exactly sensing.

    Plz, give us a break. It takes time to learn those things. Those *do* not come easy to us, unlike NeFi. They're just tools to make it translatable to other people.

    As for Ti being useful...well, in comparison to Fi it's way more recognized as such.
    In fact, I'd say Fi is probably the function that gets encourage the least and taught the least in schools, at least that's how I experienced it here.

    In fact, it's often encouraged to surpress it coz if you wanna be empathic, you have to use the social norm (Fe). Anything else, is weird and emo. Things feeling right has no value to others, cannot be quantified, therefore it's useless. As for using it in art, creating things etc etc,...maybe that's different in America, but here that's laughed at and makes your parents worry about your future as you have no way of supporting yourself with that, usually. I might be biased, but imo, Fi is incredibly difficult to develop, especially because of it's fragile nature and all the flak it gets. You're told so many times by people who don't understand how it works that it's wrong, selfish, and difficult that you end up believing it, carving out a piece of yourself to 'grow up' and becoming pretty much rudderless, which people then completely roll their eyes at.

    Meanwhile miscommunications between people are abundant, people are unhappy and don't know what they want in life, don't know what's important to them coz they've been brainwashed by society and told what is supposed to be important to them, and they're left feeling empty while striving for the wrong things. Relationships fall apart, love is hard to find, intimate connections are rare. Ever wonder why? Not saying this all is solely Fi, but an underdevelopped/surpressed Fi in Fi-users can definitely contribute to that. Even in non-Fi users, I've seen it happen. And Fi *is* hard to teach, but it needs to be done coz people just get stuck in an endless self-destructive loop they don't know how to get out of. (this is personal experience btw).

    And it is for that reason, Tesla, that I do commend you for making an effort, making a very controversial thread, and very much appreciate you trying to understand it. It's also the reason why I'm so present in this thread..maybe too present.

    /rant.
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