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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Let's not argue semantics anyway. That's kind of pointless.
    (emphasis mine)

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I would argue that Ti users are not necessarily unskilled in making logical claims; they simply do not always know when their logical claims can be applied to reality. I have seen a lot of strong Ti users overanalyze a situation to the point that their analysis becomes based off of semantics and trivial qualities of the system, and when that occurs, it's just not applicable anymore.
    (emphasis mine)

    I beg to differ. Discussing cognitive functions and trying to figure out what they really mean is nothing but semantics. Since I have never scraped a Fi off my hood, I strongly assume that it is just an abstract concept that gains its validity only via definition and discussion thereof. Nothing but semantics. The same applies to the other words I've underlined.
    Sorry if that seems pedantic, but to me it somehow seems to me you're trying to take the easy way out here.

    (I'm not trying to rant here, I'd just like to have a clarification.)
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

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  2. #152
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    I beg to differ. Discussing cognitive functions and trying to figure out what they really mean is nothing but semantics. Since I have never scraped a Fi off my hood, I strongly assume that it is just an abstract concept that gains its validity only via definition and discussion thereof. Nothing but semantics. The same applies to the other words I've underlined.
    Sure, discussing cognitive functions is about discussing their definitions. It's not about finding trivial nuances in our words and fixing them, even when the intention is clear though.

    You quoted me responding to Udog's post that said we shouldn't argue about Fi but about Fi users. I think this is an argument of semantics because it just clarifies a trivial point that most of us understand anyway. We can discuss Fi or Fi users; the same arguments will come out of both discussions, so taking the time to clarify which one we are discussing seems rather pointless.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    You quoted me responding to Udog's post that said we shouldn't argue about Fi but about Fi users.
    I know I quoted it out of context
    I think I can agree to what you've said; I just wanted to state my hesitation towards calling something trivial or clear enough.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Tesla, I wasn't hurt by this as I've talked to NTPs before, and I know how this goes. I guess I should've made my point differently. I'm trying to give you insight into Fi by relating it to the thing you know best, aka Ti, because they're similar in a lot of ways. I discuss Ti, not to discuss it, but to give you a way into the world of Fi, to see the parallells. I know from personal experience how hard it is to really grasp a mirror function, hence I was hoping my own method might help you a bit
    Actually I've noticed the parallels before. They are interesting. I kind of want to start a thread about the Fi/Ti conundrum to discuss it, but I'm staying far far away from Fi for the moment (except for responding to any more posts on this thread).

    Anyway, I've found that Fi users seem to take offense to any complaints about Fi with much more ease than Ti users do in response to any complaints about Ti. Ti users just try to break apart the system of complaints to logic their way out of any negative claims.

  5. #155
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    Don't forget that Fi gets a bad rep. Ti is widely recognized as 'useful' and 'logical' and gets a lot more credit than Fi ever does (I am talking now also in the real world). The good qualities of Fi are rarely recognized and it makes those that use it very much sad that it is so underappreciated (kinda like Si on this forum sometimes).

    And..well, some of us have tried to explain to you what Fi is about, but it's just not that easy to put Fi into words. It's not somethign you can quantify or pigeonhole. It's, imo, something you need to experience, coz there just are no words to describe it or do it justice. Makes it very hard to show other people that a) it exists and it's not something fictional, b) it actually has value and c) what it *really* is.

    Those problems, you don't encounter with Ti. The only thing you might encounter with Ti is that you go over people's heads, which will make them feel stupid. But Ti's very usefullness and value doesn't really get questionned, ime. Fi's does.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Don't forget that Fi gets a bad rep. Ti is widely recognized as 'useful' and 'logical' and gets a lot more credit than Fi ever does (I am talking now also in the real world). The good qualities of Fi are rarely recognized and it makes those that use it very much sad that it is so underappreciated (kinda like Si on this forum sometimes).

    And..well, some of us have tried to explain to you what Fi is about, but it's just not that easy to put Fi into words. It's not somethign you can quantify or pigeonhole. It's, imo, something you need to experience, coz there just are no words to describe it or do it justice. Makes it very hard to show other people that a) it exists and it's not something fictional, b) it actually has value and c) what it *really* is.

    Those problems, you don't encounter with Ti. The only thing you might encounter with Ti is that you go over people's heads, which will make them feel stupid. But Ti's very usefullness and value doesn't really get questionned, ime. Fi's does.
    Actually this is very very true. Ti rarely gets criticized, and I think that might have something to do with the fact that most people who do any criticizing are Ti users themselves. I actually find Ti pretty obnoxious at times too though. It can be really arrogant as well (see Orangey's posts on this thread) to the point that it just completely misses the actual aim or goal of the matter at hand. It spends so much time trying to find "logical" holes in a system that it can almost ignore the overall big picture, and that's frustrating. I find myself wishing that strong Ti users would just go with their gut interpretations (either Ne-induced or Se-induced) and ignore the some times trivial "problems" in logic.

    And of course, as you said, Ti users also tend to offer bouts of reasoning that completely fly over peoples' heads. They expect society and nature to operate off of impersonal logical principles, and that's not exactly how the real world functions in many situations.

    And as far as not accepting Fi goes: It's really really hard for Ti users to understand a system that cannot be quantified or even put into some kind of language. We do find this really frustrating and that often leads to us casting it off as something meaningless and silly, but that's only because we need some form of closure. We can't really rest until we feel that we have completely understood something in our own terms, so when we don't understand Fi for what it actually is, we'll just write it off as completely worthless. I'll admit that the world would be pretty shitty if there were no Fi users though, so you guys must be good for something.

  7. #157
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    I'm not even going to pretend to read the copious responses in this thread, although I've skimmed and picked up the gist of the back & forth. I do have a few thoughts to share, so if they have been shared already, forgive the repetition.

    For the record: I don't find your post disturbing, nor does it offend me, but I do think you use language a bit carelessly and are prone to generalization.

    Initially when I first saw the thread I wanted to post a definition of the word "pretentious". I'm not sure that was the best choice for what you were trying to communicate. Perhaps "assumptive" or "presumptive" would have been better and less loaded with ostentatiousness on your part (meaning it seems you were trying to attract attention to your post with a word intended to provoke an emotional reaction from a group that reads the world via emotional means). In thread you claim objectivity in this initial posting, but many of the words and phrases you choose are not neutral (bolded emphasis mine):

    "really pretentious"
    "but are wrong many times"
    "flaws in their emotional analyses"
    "obnoxiously arrogant"
    "NFJs are so much better than NFPs [at interpreting feelings]"
    "NFPs simply think they absolutely rock the world of emotional analysis"

    Language is sophisticated for a reason; you need to be careful how you use it in order to communicate without being misunderstood. It is hard to believe you are being objective when you add even extra weight to your (perhaps unwisely chosen) words with the enhancements I have bolded above. Again, it just looks like you are trying to sensationalize for the sake of getting a reaction.

    And get a reaction you certainly did! Lots of great information for you to chew on and digest.

    ---------------------------------

    To answer your OP:

    As I have gotten older I have come to trust the accuracy of emotions I sense from others but I try to refrain from drawing conclusions without testing to see if I am indeed reading correctly. But I only rarely share this "reading" with anyone; my experience is that most people don't want to be emotionally probed in their everyday lives. It creeps them out.

    That being said, I have told relative strangers what I sense from them (only if they want me to) and they are shocked to think I can know this about them without really knowing them, and have verified my senses correct. People in general though can be unaware of their emotional states or are even actively trying to suppress them. So this information is generally for my eyes only - Fi is, after all, an introverted function. But you can't know that what you feel is accurate without some scientific validation. Hence why occasionally I will be complete in what I sense from and thus what I share with another person to check the accuracy meter! It is not easy to do this either - it feels like I am exposing a part of myself I keep quite private.

    In my close relationships, I do share more. Sometimes I sense an emotional state and check in with my SO to see if it is correct. Mostly he says yes; occasionally no. But I would never presume to try to convince him he is feeling one way or another; I basically let it rest or probe deeper. Everyone is unique in how you can successfully uncover their feelings, and some people put up real boundaries to keep you from a hurting core. It's hard when what you sense from someone doesn't match what they are telling you. Time can often help.

    I do agree that Fi users can extrapolate how something would make them feel personally and thus come to an incorrect assumption of how it would make another feel. This is where a bit of probing and fact-finding is useful. And really tuning in to what you are sensing from another, trying to tune into it in purity, the pure essence of the feeling. I would say this improves as one matures, when one can better separate what they are feeling inside vs what they feel outside and gain greater confidence discerning between the two.

    Hope this is a bit of useful info for you teslashock!

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I'm not even going to pretend to read the copious responses in this thread, although I've skimmed and picked up the gist of the back & forth. I do have a few thoughts to share, so if they have been shared already, forgive the repetition.
    Yeah, well there's a quite a bit of it.

    For the record: I don't find your post disturbing, nor does it offend me, but I do think you use language a bit carelessly and are prone to generalization.

    Initially when I first saw the thread I wanted to post a definition of the word "pretentious". I'm not sure that was the best choice for what you were trying to communicate. Perhaps "assumptive" or "presumptive" would have been better and less loaded with ostentatiousness on your part (meaning it seems you were trying to attract attention to your post with a word intended to provoke an emotional reaction from a group that reads the world via emotional means). In thread you claim objectivity in this initial posting, but many of the words and phrases you choose are not neutral (bolded emphasis mine):

    "really pretentious"
    "but are wrong many times"
    "flaws in their emotional analyses"
    "obnoxiously arrogant"
    "NFJs are so much better than NFPs [at interpreting feelings]"
    "NFPs simply think they absolutely rock the world of emotional analysis"

    Language is sophisticated for a reason; you need to be careful how you use it in order to communicate without being misunderstood. It is hard to believe you are being objective when you add even extra weight to your (perhaps unwisely chosen) words with the enhancements I have bolded above. Again, it just looks like you are trying to sensationalize for the sake of getting a reaction.
    We've already touched upon this in many posts on this thread with many different members. I'm not going back to it again, but thanks for your belated input I guess. Nothing particularly profound was said by you though. But feel free to do more than skim if you'd like to truly understand how this thread has played out.

    And yes, pretentious is still the best word for communicating my perceptions. That's already been discussed though too.

    And get a reaction you certainly did! Lots of great information for you to chew on and digest.
    Much of the "information" in this thread consists of people bashing me for my lack of tact in handling Fi users. There's some interesting stuff, but no where near as much as I was wanting. I suppose I was expecting the hard feelings. Meh, whatever.

    To answer your OP:
    Thanks; you should have just skipped to this part from the get-go.

    As I have gotten older I have come to trust the accuracy of emotions I sense from others but I try to refrain from drawing conclusions without testing to see if I am indeed reading correctly. But I only rarely share this "reading" with anyone; my experience is that most people don't want to be emotionally probed in their everyday lives. It creeps them out.
    That.

    I have told relative strangers what I sense from them (only if they want me to) and they are shocked to think I can know this about them without really knowing them, and have verified my senses correct. People in general can be unaware of their emotional states or are even actively trying to suppress them. So this information is generally for my eyes only.
    This paragraph kind of makes me want to vomit, but I understand why you value this alleged skill.

    Fi is after all an introverted function.
    Again, I already went over why I don't think strong Fi automatically yields a reserved presence.

    In my close relationships, I do share more. Sometimes I sense an emotional state and check in with my SO to see if it is correct. Mostly yes; occasionally no. But I would never presume to try to convince him he is feeling one way or another; I basically let it rest or probe deeper. Everyone is unique in how you can successfully uncover their feelings, and some people put up real boundaries to keep you from a hurting core. It's hard when what you sense from someone doesn't match what they are telling you. Time can often help.
    This sounds nice. I wish that all Fi users were as humble as you.

    I do agree that Fi users can extrapolate how something would make them feel personally and thus come to an incorrect assumption of how it would make another feel. This is where a bit of probing and fact-finding is useful. And really tuning in to what you are sensing from another, trying to tune into it in purity, the pure essence of the feeling. I would say this improves as one matures, and can separate better what they are feeling inside vs what they feel outside and gain greater confidence discerning the two.
    Yes I agree. I think that most of the "pretentiousness" that I'm perceiving is due to the fact that some Fi users don't use their Pe enough to get enough information before making a claim. Understanding the reason for it makes it no less annoying though.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    This paragraph kind of makes me want to vomit, but I understand why you value this alleged skill.
    Well, it can be like knowing the lottery numbers. It's a real advantage in many contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Again, I already went over why I don't think strong Fi automatically yields a reserved presence.
    I can't comment on whether a reserved presence is a given, but I can share with you my own personal qualities - I keep my feelings to myself 95 - 99% of the time. I don't know any INFP's who walk around with their feelings exposed for all to see either. BUT - I do think in a very close or intimate relationship, more would be visible and thus perhaps an issue of contention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But Ti's very usefullness and value doesn't really get questionned, ime. Fi's does.
    I'm going to have to disagree with that. Sometimes Ti seems pedantic and out of touch with reality. Te seems more "useful" than Ti to me. I definitely value Ti, even admire it at times, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I think it's always "useful." It annoys the shit out of me sometimes, actually, and seems intellectually pretentious as opposed to emotionally pretentious. I actually think that Ti and Fi mirror each other in many ways, and this mirror both draws me and repels me when I find it in NTPs.

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