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Pretentious Fi

Moiety

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I don't believe that Ti/Fe users can use Fi and that Fi/Te users can use Ti. The two systems are just so fundamentally contradictory.

I would love to see a definition of Ti and all the reasons why me as an ENFP couldn't possibly be using it.
 

teslashock

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I like this thread because it has people describing how they, as individuals, experience their functions. You can count on me to be long-winded anyway :D

However, this thread, :thumbdown:

If you took the time and effort to wipe away your clouded Fi lens, maybe you could find it within yourself to objectively and impartially read through the numerous posts on this thread. Many members have offered an array of posts that do a very good job of explaining Fi, why it doesn't mesh well with Ti users, and how both Ti and Fi can be used in a more Fe-friendly way to remedy the situation. Your incessant nonsense about how this thread sucks is just annoying and unwanted. Most of the members posting in the last half of this thread have done a really good job of alleviating any hostility, and a lot of good things have been said. If you don't like the thread, then just stay away. None of us like listening to your pointless gripes anyway.
 

teslashock

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I would love to see a definition of Ti and all the reasons why me as an ENFP couldn't possibly be using it.

Both Ti and Fi cause one to hold a certain rigid value system. Ti causes one to have a value system based on impersonal logical consistency. Fi causes one to have a value system based on personal empathy. You're using Ji whenever you attempt to abide by your given value system, not simply whenever you come to a Ti conclusion or an Fi conclusion. Being logical does not necessarily mean you are using Ti, and being empathetic does not necessarily mean you are using Fi.

You can't have a value system that's simultaneously based both on impersonal logic and personal empathy. Again, they are just so fundamentally contradictory. As an Fi user, you don't seek out impersonal logical consistency; you seek out personal emotional harmony. There is no viable logical argument that says we are obligated to be empathetic, and there is no viable empathetic argument that says logic should be of the utmost importance.

Here's a bit of a concrete political example that may help to stress my point:

Ti coupled with a healthy dose of Fe attempts to apply this logical value system to be harmonious with the rest of society. A lot of Ti/Fe users lean towards libertarianism because "live and let live" makes logical sense on an impersonal level for Ti and letting people be free of others' burdens allows people to get along well, thereby appealing to Fe.

On the other hand, Fi coupled with a healthy dose of Te attempts to externalize this empathy to help others in a pragmatic way. Many Fi/Te users have a more politically liberal slant, as they believe that the more fortunate should be active in helping the downtrodden.

As an ENFP, you may come to some of the same conclusions that Ti users come to. Sure, you have the ability to find logical holes in arguments, and you can systematize and analyze in the same way that Ti users do. However, you're not using Ti to do this. It's occurring because you have been introduced to logic before and come to understand it (Si), because you realize that logical consistency is practical (Te), and because you have the Ne to realize that logical analysis/systematization is one of many possible solutions to a given challenge.

Bottom line, it just doesn't make sense to have a value system driven by both Ti and Fi. You may appear to be using Ti, but it's just a result of some other function. Ti users and Fi users simply cannot think the same way on the most basic cognitive level.
 

simulatedworld

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I would love to see a definition of Ti and all the reasons why me as an ENFP couldn't possibly be using it.

If you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

Ti is a directly contradictory attitude that makes the same sorts of decisions as Fi, except it makes a point of basing them on impersonal reasoning that is "logical in a vacuum" instead of on personal values.

When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.

On a side note, a large majority of the people who claim to use every function are Fi users who don't like the feeling of being "boxed in" by the theory because they think it's dehumanizing. Your decision that no function is beyond you seems likely to be based on Fi's indignation at a perceived threat to its individuality.
 

teslashock

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When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.

The rest of your post was good, but I don't see how this is a relevant point to support your claim that Ti users can't use Fi. Just because you extrovert feeling doesn't mean you can't introvert it as well. If an ExTJ has really shitty Fi (as most do), I still think he/she could have a value system based heavily on impersonal logic, despite the dominant Te.

Having a value system based off of impersonal logic is much more contradictory to Fi than extroverting one's emotions is, imho.
 

simulatedworld

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The rest of your post was good, but I don't see how this is a relevant point to support your claim that Ti users can't use Fi. Just because you extrovert feeling doesn't mean you can't introvert it as well. If an ExTJ has really shitty Fi (as most do), I still think he/she could have a value system based heavily on impersonal logic, despite the dominant Te.

Having a value system based off of impersonal logic is much more contradictory to Fi than extroverting one's emotions is, imho.

It's just a supporting detail to help complete the picture. The relationship between Ti and Fe dictates that logical judgments should be made internally and according to impersonal reasoning which exists in a vacuum and is unaffected by external conditions, while ethical decisions should be made externally and according to the communal values of one's social/tribal group--which is dependent upon external conditions. Logic = self and ethics = environment.

This directly contradicts the Fi/Te approach, which says that ethics are private and unaffected by external conditions, but that what is logical depends upon what's going on outside the self. Ethics = self and logic = environment.
 

Moiety

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Bottom line, it just doesn't make sense to have a value system driven by both Ti and Fi. You may appear to be using Ti, but it's just a result of some other function. Ti users and Fi users simply cannot think the same way on the most basic cognitive level.

Was that a conclusion you arrived to, based on everything you explained? Or did you start out by accepting it as true and then prove yourself?

Because to me it makes a lot of sense for people to be using the different functions (certainly to varying degrees) at different points having a select few preferences.

Posting in a MBTI forum for me is like going to sunday school when I was a child - even though I might agree with/believe in the theory/concept, I'm only interested in if it keeps answering the questions I come up with.


If you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

I see it as : When you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

Ti is a directly contradictory attitude that makes the same sorts of decisions as Fi, except it makes a point of basing them on impersonal reasoning that is "logical in a vacuum" instead of on personal values.

I see Fi and Te as a lot more contradictory between them than Fi and Ti which are basically using the same "work ethic", only with different objects. Now you can have preference for a certain kind of object (in an ENFPs case, feelings I guess) but nothing is stopping you for being detached in certain scenarios that don't strike you at a subconscious level (where instinct dictates that you WILL use Fi).

When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.

There seem to be quite a few INtPs out there which are a lot more comfortable with feelings, and it makes more sense for them to use Fi (which they seem to do, since they tend to be divided between the INTP and INFP descriptions) than to be using their inferior function Fe in any proficient way.

On a side note, a large majority of the people who claim to use every function are Fi users who don't like the feeling of being "boxed in" by the theory because they think it's dehumanizing. Your decision that no function is beyond you seems likely to be based on Fi's indignation at a perceived threat to its individuality.

I don't know what makes you use the expression "large majority" which such decisiveness, but yes it makes perfect sense that my Fi's indignation at a possible threat to my individuality is the subconscious reason why I'm searching for a less constricting and rudimentary personality system that I don't think accurately separates me from other people.

Bear in mind, I'm not saying I'm not an ENFP, or even that I don't use Fi 90% of the time...I simply think I use Ti as well cause the description resonates..


And I do think that SOME of the conclusions I arrived to in my value system used Ti as well. Live and let live makes sense to me not just from an empathic angle but from a logical one as well.
 

teslashock

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It's just a supporting detail to help complete the picture. The relationship between Ti and Fe dictates that logical judgments should be made internally and according to impersonal reasoning which exists in a vacuum and is unaffected by external conditions, while ethical decisions should be made externally and according to the communal values of one's social/tribal group--which is dependent upon external conditions. Logic = self and ethics = environment.

This directly contradicts the Fi/Te approach, which says that ethics are private and unaffected by external conditions, but that what is logical depends upon what's going on outside the self. Ethics = self and logic = environment.

Yeah that argument isn't really doing it for me. I still don't see why it's not possible for logic = environment + self or why it's not possible for ethics = environment + self. I completely agree with you that both logic + ethics cannot = environment and that logic + ethics cannot = self, but why do you believe that everyone expresses both logic and ethics in some form?

It seems like your Ti is just wanting to create a cohesive and conclusive picture in an attempt for things to make logical sense, but my Ne is not accepting that this pretty picture is the only possibility.
 

Seymour

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If you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

Ti is a directly contradictory attitude that makes the same sorts of decisions as Fi, except it makes a point of basing them on impersonal reasoning that is "logical in a vacuum" instead of on personal values.

When Ti users express emotion, they do it externally via Fe.

On a side note, a large majority of the people who claim to use every function are Fi users who don't like the feeling of being "boxed in" by the theory because they think it's dehumanizing. Your decision that no function is beyond you seems likely to be based on Fi's indignation at a perceived threat to its individuality.

I think you'll find that most type materials claim that everyone has at least some access to all 8 functions. That doesn't mean one is likely to use a less preferred function as the final arbiter when making important decisions though. I think we tend to use our less preferred functions more contextually to back the goals decided upon by our preferred functions.

For example, I may decide to do something in a squishy Fi-based way, but I may enlist some form of Thinking to backfill so I can analyze, justify and concisely explain my choice to others.

I think Ti may be exacting enough that some Ti-heavy folks may have a harder time allowing other, less precise and exacting judging functions much reign (as some Ti users have argued here). Being an Fi-dom, I can't really say for sure, but I could see that as a possibility.
 

onemoretime

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Ti coupled with a healthy dose of Fe attempts to apply this logical value system to be harmonious with the rest of society. A lot of Ti/Fe users lean towards libertarianism because "live and let live" makes logical sense on an impersonal level for Ti and letting people be free of others' burdens allows people to get along well, thereby appealing to Fe.

On the other hand, Fi coupled with a healthy dose of Te attempts to externalize this empathy to help others in a pragmatic way. Many Fi/Te users have a more politically liberal slant, as they believe that the more fortunate should be active in helping the downtrodden.

Whoa, slow your roll there - Ti/Fe can be quite progressive as well (NeTi is a hell of a tinkerer, you know), given hard power dynamics (if many people aren't comfortable, they come after the people who are with guns and murder in their eyes), along with a desire to solve problems at a large, effective scale (requiring broad power structures).

Fi/Te, on the other hand, can also be highly libertarian, if maximization of personal freedom is among that person's core values. They'll also be among the most vocal about it, too - you can't look at the Ron Paul movement or the initial stages of the Tea Partiers and tell me that there wasn't a lot of Fi there.
 

teslashock

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Was that a conclusion you arrived to, based on everything you explained? Or did you start out by accepting it as true and then prove yourself?

I was just trying to explain to you why I think that Fi/Ti are so contradictory and thus cannot both be used by a given person.

Because to me it makes a lot of sense for people to be using the different functions (certainly to varying degrees) at different points having a select few preferences.

It only makes sense because you can't see how two different functions might reach the same end goal.


I see Fi and Te as a lot more contradictory between them than Fi and Ti which are basically using the same "work ethic", only with different objects. Now you can have preference for a certain kind of object (in an ENFPs case, feelings I guess) but nothing is stopping you for being detached in certain scenarios that don't strike you at a subconscious level (where instinct dictates that you WILL use Fi).

Please explain how Fi and Te are contradictory. That just doesn't make any sense to me. I already explained in a couple posts back how Fi and Te work together to provide one with a liberal and/or humanitarian political slant.

There seem to be quite a few INtPs out there which are a lot more comfortable with feelings, and it makes more sense for them to use Fi (which they seem to do, since they tend to be divided between the INTP and INFP descriptions) than to be using their inferior function Fe in any proficient way.

Fi does not hold claim on emotional expression and "feelings." Where is your argument that a feely INTP is using Fi when he/she becomes feely? Why not Fe?




And I do think that SOME of the conclusions I arrived to in my value system used Ti as well. Live and let live makes sense to me not just from an empathic angle but from a logical one as well.

Live and let live probably makes sense to you because it's practical, not logical. You probably equate practical with logical, but they aren't the same.
 

teslashock

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Whoa, slow your roll there - Ti/Fe can be quite progressive as well (NeTi is a hell of a tinkerer, you know), given hard power dynamics (if many people aren't comfortable, they come after the people who are with guns and murder in their eyes), along with a desire to solve problems at a large, effective scale (requiring broad power structures).

Fi/Te, on the other hand, can also be highly libertarian, if maximization of personal freedom is among that person's core values. They'll also be among the most vocal about it, too - you can't look at the Ron Paul movement or the initial stages of the Tea Partiers and tell me that there wasn't a lot of Fi there.

Ok, sorry I didn't put in the mandatory footnote that my post was not supposed to be taken as universally and ubiquitously accurate. Of course NTPs can be liberal and of course FPs can be libertarian. I was just giving an example.
 

simulatedworld

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Was that a conclusion you arrived to, based on everything you explained? Or did you start out by accepting it as true and then prove yourself?

Because to me it makes a lot of sense for people to be using the different functions (certainly to varying degrees) at different points having a select few preferences.

That's interesting, because this is a very Fi decision. Whenever you make a judgment, ask yourself what the ultimate root cause that led to it was. If you keep reducing, you'll find ethics and logic don't mix--one governs the inner world (and is thus subjective and non-negotiable) and the other governs the outer world (and is thus relative to current conditions.)


Posting in a MBTI forum for me is like going to sunday school when I was a child - even though I might agree with/believe in the theory/concept, I'm only interested in if it keeps answering the questions I come up with.

So what makes you think you're using Ti even some of the time? Fi "just knows" that you can't be so limited as to use only four of the eight functions?




I see it as : When you make internal value judgments based on your feelings, you're not using Ti.

Yes, and it's my (our) contention that Fi/Te people never make internal value judgments on any basis other than personal ethical values because they have a fundamental worldview that defines ethics as personal and subjective, and logic as dependent upon external conditions.

Provide any example you want where you think you used Ti, and if you keep asking "Why?" until it's reduced to its fundamental motivation, you'll find that it's based on subjective personal values (Fi) or an empirical definition of what works (Te.)



I see Fi and Te as a lot more contradictory between them than Fi and Ti which are basically using the same "work ethic", only with different objects. Now you can have preference for a certain kind of object (in an ENFPs case, feelings I guess) but nothing is stopping you for being detached in certain scenarios that don't strike you at a subconscious level (where instinct dictates that you WILL use Fi).

It may seem that way, but actually Te compliments Fi by providing a way to make impersonal judgments according to one's surroundings. Fi, being introverted, can't really deal directly with the external world so another form of judgment is needed to make decisions that require influence from external conditions.

The same relationship applies to Fe/Ti. Ti and Fi contradict each other because one says that internal value judgments should be made impersonally and the other says they should be made personally. If I were to ask you how internal value judgments should be made, you'd probably answer that it depends on the situation, but I think if you try and find a situation where you made an internal value judgment impersonally, you'll find that digging deep enough into your true reasoning process shows that it always reduces to an Fi value.

For instance, consider an INFP judge who is morally opposed to causing pain. Fi might prevent him from sentencing people to the proper punishments--but then (if he were a balanced person) Te would step in and say, "Listen, I know this feels wrong, but the system won't function the way it's supposed to if you don't do your job and sentence people to harmful punishments." You might misinterpret this as Ti, but it's really Te+Fi because failure to perform his duties correctly here would constitute an even broader breach of Fi's ethics--"It is my moral duty to pass this sentence."

It's all a question of whether you think morality comes from the inside and logic from the outside, or vice versa--and these are fundamentally pervasive worldviews that don't mix.



There seem to be quite a few INtPs out there which are a lot more comfortable with feelings, and it makes more sense for them to use Fi (which they seem to do, since they tend to be divided between the INTP and INFP descriptions) than to be using their inferior function Fe in any proficient way.

These are just people who don't know about functions and can't decide between the poorly written oversimplified MBTI profiles for INFP and INTP. There is a very distinct difference between the two in the way moral and logical values are discerned--but MBTI is garbage and doesn't tell you that. When Ti and Te get lumped together into just "T" and Fi/Fe turn into just "F", it's very hard to discern the difference between Te+Fi and Fe+Ti--but it's definitely there.



I don't know what makes you use the expression "large majority" which such decisiveness, but yes it makes perfect sense that my Fi's indignation at a possible threat to my individuality is the subconscious reason why I'm searching for a less constricting and rudimentary personality system that I don't think accurately separates me from other people.

I suppose I'd have to attribute this to my Si and its experience with this sort of thing. Ti users usually want to be placed into a particular category because they appreciate impersonal and definite categorization. Fi users (especially in conjunction with Ne) are almost invariably the ones who cling to "OH BUT I'M TOO UNIQUE TO BE CATEGORIZED, SO I DON'T HAVE A TYPE!!"...which is in itself a heavily Fi-oriented position.

Bear in mind, I'm not saying I'm not an ENFP, or even that I don't use Fi 90% of the time...I simply think I use Ti as well cause the description resonates..
And I do think that SOME of the conclusions I arrived to in my value system used Ti as well. Live and let live makes sense to me not just from an empathic angle but from a logical one as well.

Let's hear some examples of your Ti use. I expect upon closer examination they can be reduced to Fi/Te motivations.

Consider, also, that many descriptions of these things are poorly written by people who don't understand them very well. Often someone will notice a common behavior in INTPs and then write a description that declares it a Ti behavior, which is silly. There's no such thing as a Ti behavior, only Ti motivations.
 

PeaceBaby

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It's all a question of whether you think morality comes from the inside and logic from the outside, or vice versa--and these are fundamentally pervasive worldviews that don't mix.

^ I like how you've expressed that sim.

But do you think a Ti dominant would never use Fi? Never, ever?
 

onemoretime

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Ok, sorry I didn't put in the mandatory footnote that my post was not supposed to be taken as universally and ubiquitously accurate. Of course NTPs can be liberal and of course FPs can be libertarian. I was just giving an example.

However, you were using that as a representative example. Needless to say, it's probably smarter to be a little more precise in presentation than political alignment. Something like: "in politics, TiFe likely leads to a desire to fix the current problems of the day, based on one's political alignment and desire to create social harmony. On the other hand, FiTe in politics will likely fight vigorously to promote those causes and defeat those opponents which stand in the way of truth. The former will criticize the latter as impractical, the latter the former as calculating and conniving."
 

teslashock

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However, you were using that as a representative example. Needless to say, it's probably smarter to be a little more precise in presentation than political alignment. Something like: "in politics, TiFe likely leads to a desire to fix the current problems of the day, based on one's political alignment and desire to create social harmony. On the other hand, FiTe in politics will likely fight vigorously to promote those causes and defeat those opponents which stand in the way of truth. The former will criticize the latter as impractical, the latter the former as calculating and conniving."

I don't see what's wrong with me using a more concrete example, and it's probably easier to absorb than a more general approach. I simply wanted to provide an example of how Ti/Fe work and how Fi/Te work, and how the two may be contradictory. General or specific, it still gets the point across. You're just being a pain right now.

If you want to generalize my example to make it more representative, then go for it, but don't tell me how I could have been "smarter" in my phrasing. It'd be smarter for you to realize that I wasn't trying to provide a broad representative example. Again, obviously I don't think that TP necessarily implies libertarianism and FP necessarily implies liberalism. That's silly.
 

onemoretime

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I don't see what's wrong with me using a more concrete example. It still gets the point across, and it's probably easier to absorb than a more general approach. You're just being a pain right now.

I'm
the one being a pain, when you were the one who made an overly broad generalization that might have confused others, and getting snippy and defensive when I tried to help make the example fit the typological model better.

Politics, like any other social science, is anything but concrete on the surface. You have to remain broad and general until you find hard data with which you can make a more precise claim.
 

onemoretime

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If you want to generalize my example to make it more representative, then go for it, but don't tell me how I could have been "smarter" in my phrasing. It'd be smarter for you to realize that I wasn't trying to provide a broad representative example. Again, obviously I don't think that TP necessarily implies libertarianism and FP necessarily implies liberalism. That's silly.

That is what you implied, however. I've spent far too much time making phone calls and poring over statistics to let that go. Forgive me if I offended you in my phrasing.
 

teslashock

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That is what you implied, however. I've spent far too much time making phone calls and poring over statistics to let that go. Forgive me if I offended you in my phrasing.

Actually, no that's not what my post implied. I said "a lot" and "many." I never said "most" or "nearly all." My specific example only confuses others when they think that my example should be ubiquitously applied, and I never said that it should.

Thank you for generalizing it, but you did it in a way that seemed like you were correcting me, and I don't think my post warranted correction. Generalizing is fine, but that's not what I was trying to do.
 
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