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Thread: Pretentious Fi

  1. #91
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Perhaps what you are describing is very healthy Fi, and I never meant to imply that Fi is an inherently terrible function. I think it's safe to say that some Fi users don't use it in the most optimal, mature, developed way (as can be said for any of the other functions as well).
    Yep, I do have a habit of romanticising it (I do that with all pure function definitions)--undeveloped Fi would not be quite so neat.

    I have a very close INFP friend, and I see the kind of projection that I described on a fairly regular basis. If X upsets her, then she automatically assumes that when X happens to me, I will be also be upset. Even after I explain to her that we have different values so what upsets her doesn't necessarily upset me, she still has trouble convincing herself that my claims about my own emotions are true. I think it's really hard for her to separate her own emotions from a circumstance.
    Ah, okay. I don't know, it still kind of sounds like shadow Fe to me, but then we run into definition and semantic problems. Regardless of the source of her behaviour (Fi or Fe), I think it's valid to be irritated.

    I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying it's pretentious though, unless it's flouncing around with a lace parasol, singing "La-dee-dah, I am soooooooo deep and sensitive and I know how you feel better than you do!" Then again, that's just my definition of pretentious coming into play.

    But anyway, in dealing with it--perhaps it's best just to state your own stance, then back off. It doesn't seem like you'll convince them using any arguments and sounds like it's just going to produce a roadblock of frustration for you. They'll have to convince themselves when they don't see you crying or responding the same way they do.

    If their behaviour is intruding on your own fun/joy/lifestyle though, maybe you could just focus on the behaviour--ie, don't challenge their perceptions, but just ask them to change specific bits of behaviour when it comes to you.

    Both. Forums and with two of my NFP friends as well as with an ESFP and an ISFP irl.
    Do they know they're those types? In my experience people tend to go crazy with their type in the beginning and become mild (or extreme) caricatures before they find their balance. Some may take longer than others to rebalance.


    Anyway I really appreciate your post. It was really great and very much along the lines of the responses I was looking for. Thanks.
    Cheers.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    This sounds very good, but doesn't it require my own use of Fi? I'm not sure that I really know how to do that effectively. I'd probably just end up sounding like a mindless idiot.
    I'm not terribly in touch with my Fi, either. Most likely is my last function preference (given results of not-so-valid online tests, such as they are).

    But, I am good at taking different perspectives, putting myself in other's shoes and guessing the most likely thing they'd think given their person and the situation. A few well-placed choice questions following, usually confirms or negates my assumed perspective of theirs (Ne-Ti).

    Thinking is not so separate from feeling. How much personal value one puts into their thoughts, how much (in what way) they internalize it....I'd say you're getting warmer to the Fi.

    My thoughts are correct/incorrect (given X situation) - Ti
    My thoughts are right/wrong (given X situation) - Fi

    Forget right/wrong, correct/incorrect.....just deal with the thoughts, is what I was saying before (Fi being subjective, just like Ti). And, this time change up the position of the player within X situation.

    It's a perspectives game....it's not that hard for Ne, I wouldn't think.

    Also, I'm afraid that the Fi users will be like "AH HAH! So now you find my tactics beneficial!", and that'd just be a slap in the face that I can't handle.
    Go with it.....for every benefit, ask them, what's it's opposite extreme? How can that same thing be a hindrance, given what situation? Make it a game, not you vs me...a game of (understanding) the thought itself. Neither to own.

    The fun and most frustrating thing about interpersonal relationships and the answers therein, is that there's no right or wrong. So for every "right", it can very well be a "wrong" if applied to another case. It's perspective. Ne takes the cake on scanning the external environment and coming up with possible perspectives (intuitive leaps, given external cues). I'm very visual in how I imagine things, in that an "object" (or thought) can rotate itself in my mind, in many different ways, angles, and I know how it will look from most of those perspectives. Ne affords me this gift. Utilize it.

    Perhaps I should keep a bouquet of daisies in my back pocket at all times and just whip that out whenever my FP friends start whining. Will that work you think?
    Plan B.

    (also helps when you kinda bite your inner-tongue from interpreting it as whining....allows up the buffet of perspectives, rather than a few choice meals)

  3. #93
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    However, Fi does apply to other types aside from NFPs. I actually didn't even gear the OP at NFPs. I said "Fi users." IxFPs have dominant Fi, so their insight is of course wanted, and I think Fi influences them the most, so it's safe to say that the kinds of consequences that I referenced in the OP may be most seen in IxFPs. However, that's not to say that other types with Fi wouldn't exhibit actions that may appear emotionally "pretentious" as well.
    First of all, it becomes increasingly difficult throughout the thread to distinguish your assessment of Fi users in general from your assessment of xNFPs in particular.

    I think it's mostly an NFP thing.
    I'd say that's why NFPs come across as so pretentious to NTPs though.
    You even began by essentially equating the two in your description of your complaint:

    I feel like NFJs are so much better than NFPs at...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I never said that I don't want the input of INFPs. However, I do appreciate input from other types as well, as the input of INFPs is not the end-all, be-all when it comes to critiquing my perception.

    And of course Fi users are going to start saying that they aren't prentious! Calling Fi pretentious is a complete insult to Fi's claims at being empathetic and skilled at analyzing emotions. I was expecting NFPs to respond this way; I wasn't writing their views off or "retorting" by saying that their opinions are biased and thus no good. I just am not going to be satisfied by their opinions alone.
    Maybe you should be soliciting other points of view, if that's the case, instead of indicating frustration at the glut of Fi dom xNFP users who replied when you specifically asked Fi users to contribute and linked your problems with Fi with xNPFs in particular. I understand why you are looking for a more representative sample, but with the way you phrased your OP, it was going to draw these particular respondants first.

    That said, I don't think you started this thread to fling shit at Fi users or NFPs. You were open in the thread to understanding both how Fi worked and how your argument was percieved (even if you indicated that you thought the problem was on the end of the "listener"). I think it was an issue of starting the thread on the wrong footing.

    Again, I was simply discussing an observation that I had and trying to see if the observation could be generalized or was completely delusional on my part. The OP was supposed to be more inquisitive than anything else. Does it have to be "intellectual" to warrant discussion? Wtf does that mean anyway?
    I don't think I would have gotten my point across had I chosen more "neutral" words (or at least there's no neutral words in my normal vocab repertoire that would have sufficed).
    You might have said something like: "Why do Fi users seem to believe that they have particular insight when it comes to the emotions of others? In fact, NFJs seem to have the true advantage in this area. This has frustrated me in my interactions with Fi users, especially NFPs: (insert concrete example BlackCat noted was missing). Here are the possible typological explanations I have considered: (x, y and z). Do these observations conform to your experiences or understanding of Fi? I am interested in a range of opinions, both theoretical and anecdotal, as well as from Fi users and non-Fi users for the sake of a well-rounded discussion of the inquiry. This is not meant as a personal attack on Fi and I would not appreciate it if this thread devolved into a battle of Ti vs. Fi as that would detract from any possible understanding that might be reached."

    Your OP was a little disorganized and some sentences seemed like venting, while only one really outlined a possible explanation for your observations. It's okay to use subjective observations to make a point, as you noted, but if you assert that you expected impartial analysis along with anecdotal evidence, you should have included a balanced approach yourself so that the bases of your claim could be examined from both perspectives.

    Notice that the language I used is not as charged as in the OP, making it more conducive to a neutral discussion of your argument on its merits. It would have both clearly outlined both your anecdotal and theoretical evidence and avoided the vague language you used to describe your observations such as the following, which make the basis of your argument less suitable for analysis.

    it seems to me like oftentimes it's just completely out of control.
    Does anybody feel like
    It seems like Fi people constantly think
    Restrained and precise language should not be dismissed as touchy-feely or pc; it is helpful in any discussion. Also, the language didn't have to be 'intellectual' and detached to be diplomatic and clear.

    I wish that this thread had not become so contentious because I was looking forward to discussing Fi here. It is by far my most used function and I would like to better understand both its possible strengths and weaknesses. It looks like you are starting to get the responses you want from non-Fi users. Maybe this is a step in the right direction.
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  4. #94
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Teslashock:

    I admit that I took your use of "biased" to mean "personally biased" and not "biased sample," but I think your statement here gives me a clue as to why I interpreted it that way:

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    And of course Fi users are going to start saying that they aren't prentious! Calling Fi pretentious is a complete insult to Fi's claims at being empathetic and skilled at analyzing emotions. I was expecting NFPs to respond this way; I wasn't writing their views off or "retorting" by saying that their opinions are biased and thus no good. I just am not going to be satisfied by their opinions alone.
    You have basically said here that your expectation of their reaction caused you to take less seriously their claims that they are not pretentious. I knew I wasn't getting that impression from nowhere. Sure, you won't dismiss them outright, but you will place less weight on their experiences of themselves than on others' experiences of them, or on "impersonal observations/judgments."

    Also, the way you used the term sort of conflated the two meanings. You said, "And I appreciate your insight. A few INFPs' opinions on Fi are not going to be very convincing arguments though. I'm not implying that you are wrong about yourself. It'd be nice to hear insights, personal, anecdotal, or theoretical, that analyze my speculations about Fi. Not just Fi users' opinions about Fi. Regardless of how much I appreciate the INFP insight, it's a pretty biased sampling pool, if you ask me." So first you are talking about numbers of INFPs when you say "a few." Then you say that you'd like to hear from others, too, supporting the numbers interpretation. However, then you say, "not just Fi users opinions about Fi." That does not refer to the number of people responding, or the distribution of types responding, but rather to the validity of Fi-user's opinions about themselves. Then you go back to talking about numbers. So it was sort of like, "well it's nice and all that you've responded, but I need to hear from more than just Fi users, and on top of that, it's just your opinion of yourself anyway, so that makes what you say even less significant towards answering my question."

    And BTW I did read the whole thread. From my perspective, it appeared as though all contrary information was being ignored. You failed to reply to or acknowledge contradictory responses, and when you did reply (which was only to people who agreed in some way), you seemed to just continue assuming that Fi users had this pretentious quality, instead of keeping a speculative, "well I don't know if they do or not" type of attitude.

    If you don't believe me, I can break it down for you:

    OP: asks question
    demimondaine: disagrees
    OrangeAppled: disagrees
    Amargith: agrees tacitly and gives theory about why Fi goes wrong in judgments of feelings.
    BlackCat: Agrees that NFPs do what you suggest, and separates the SFPs from them in that regard.
    You: Respond to Amargith and ask how, given that what she says is true, Ti and Fi can hope to get along in arguments and discussions.
    You: Agree with BlackCat that it's mostly NFPs who do this.

    WildHorses: mostly irrelevant personal comment.
    BlackCat: Further elaborating on how SFPs like him are different than NFPs in that they are not pretentious.
    JocktheMotie: Agrees tentatively, and says that Ti does the same thing.
    OrangeAppled: repeats that it is not a definitive Fi-only trait, and states frustration with continued assumption that it is (she quotes a follow-up question that you asked which goes thus: "It seems like Fi users could be more productive if they were willing to admit that their own feelings are not inherently correct and/or universally felt." Do you not see how this recommendation makes it seem as though your judgment on the matter is pretty solidified?)
    Amargith: Elaborates more on your question.
    BlackCat: Responds to defensive tone of OrangeAppled's post, prophesying a "shitstorm" (which probably did as much to cause it as prophesy it).
    Quinlan: asks for concrete examples.
    JocktheMotie: joke response.
    OrangeAppled: Defensive reaction.
    Poppy: says that it happens with both NFs.
    Nescio: Joke response.
    BlackCat: agrees with quinlan.
    Adoamros: agrees that other FPs have done it to him, but disagrees that he does it.
    Nescio: Joke response
    Nebbykoo: agrees with OrangeAppled.
    Poki: disagrees with you and says it's more of an extraverted judgment thing.
    Seymour: disagrees with you.
    OrangeAppled: elaborates on communication generally.
    Nebbykoo: agrees.
    You: you quote OrangeAppled and use it as a confirmation of the behavior you are ascribing to Fi.
    Poki: disagrees with you, saying that your OP is accusatory.
    You: defend yourself further against OrangeAppled and Nebbykoo.
    You: complain more generally about NFs taking things personally.

    onemoretime: sarcastic remark on NFP defensiveness.
    OrangeAppled: argues back.
    BlackCat: complains about how NFs take things personally.
    Me: disagrees with you on experiential and theoretical grounds.
    Seymour: gives general evaluation of strengths and weaknesses of NTs and NFs comparitively.
    OrangeAppled: defends against BlackCat's attack on NFs.
    BlackCat: cuts back extent of claim, saying he meant only "some" NFs and tells OrangeAppled to "chill."
    You: Defend against OrangeAppled again.
    OrangeAppled: reiterates that pretentiousness is not type related.
    BlackCat: basically admits it's not a specifically NFP thing.
    You: here is your "biased sampling pool" post, where you basically tell OrangeAppled, "thanks, that's nice that you don't agree, but I want to hear more from others too."
    Ajblaise: disagrees with you based on definition of pretentiousness and type theory.
    onemoretime: some slightly irrelevant post that makes little sense to me, though maybe it does to others.

    And so on...it's just more repetetiveness from there. So it seems that above all else, your lack of acknowledgment of differring arguments/evidence makes it seem as though you are only looking to confirm what you want to see, rather than thoroughly take into account all sides of the issue. The only time you did respond to a contradictory argument was to react to the defensive language of OrangeAppled, at which point you seemed more than eager to deploy the "oh look at how the NFP is being so sensitive, does this not prove that my perceptions are true?," but never to temper your perception or find a way to explain them given the objection, which most people do.

    Okay, I'm done.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #95
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane View Post
    First of all, it becomes increasingly difficult throughout the thread to distinguish your assessment of Fi users in general from your assessment of xNFPs in particular.
    I completely agree. That's probably due to the fact that a lot of the responses were from NFPs, and it turned into an NFP thing rather than Fi thing. I never really wanted that though. I wanted to discuss NFPs, sure, as they use Fi so blatantly, but I didn't want it to be solely about them.


    Maybe you should be soliciting other points of view, if that's the case, instead of indicating frustration at the glut of Fi dom xNFP users who replied when you specifically asked Fi users to contribute and linked your problems with Fi with xNPFs in particular. I understand why you are looking for a more representative sample, but with the way you phrased your OP, it was going to draw these particular respondants first.
    I did solicit other POVs. I never explicitly said in the OP: "NFPs, how do you guys feel about this?" I don't know where your above claim is orginating from.


    That said, I don't think you started this thread to fling shit at Fi users or NFPs. You were open in the thread to understanding both how Fi worked and how your argument was percieved (even if you indicated that you thought the problem was on the end of the "listener"). I think it was an issue of starting the thread on the wrong footing.


    You might have said something like: "Why do Fi users seem to believe that they have particular insight when it comes to the emotions of others? In fact, NFJs seem to have the true advantage in this area. This has frustrated me in my interactions with Fi users, especially NFPs: (insert concrete example BlackCat noted was missing). Here are the possible typological explanations I have considered: (x, y and z). Do these observations conform to your experiences or understanding of Fi? I am interested in a range of opinions, both theoretical and anecdotal, as well as from Fi users and non-Fi users for the sake of a well-rounded discussion of the inquiry. This is not meant as a personal attack on Fi and I would not appreciate it if this thread devolved into a battle of Ti vs. Fi as that would detract from any possible understanding that might be reached."
    I was trying to keep the OP as simple as possible. I didn't want to offer too much detailed analysis and personal theories because I wanted others to respond with their own first.

    Your OP was a little disorganized and some sentences seemed like venting, while only one really outlined a possible explanation for your observations. It's okay to use subjective observations to make a point, as you noted, but if you assert that you expected impartial analysis along with anecdotal evidence, you should have included a balanced approach yourself so that the bases of your claim could be examined from both perspectives.
    I have read the OP over and over and over, and I am still having a really hard time seeing why people seem to be taking such offense to it. I don't really see how it was "venting" or as unbalanced as you are making it out to be.


    I wish that this thread had not become so contentious because I was looking forward to discussing Fi here. It is by far my most used function and I would like to better understand both its possible strengths and weaknesses. It looks like you are starting to get the responses you want from non-Fi users. Maybe this is a step in the right direction.
    Me too. And again, I really don't see how the OP warranted such contention, but maybe I'm just completely out of touch with the sensitive sides of others.

  6. #96
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Same. It drives me crazy. Like the other day this ENFP came up to me and told me I was sad because my dog had AIDS. How the f**k would they know. My dog didn't have AIDS. I don't even have a dog! And a few weeks ago an INFP came up to me and told me I was sick of work. I was just having lunch. It's like they're everywhere and I never get a break from them.
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  7. #97
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You have basically said here that your expectation of their reaction caused you to take less seriously their claims that they are not pretentious. I knew I wasn't getting that impression from nowhere. Sure, you won't dismiss them outright, but you will place less weight on their experiences of themselves than on others' experiences of them, or on "impersonal observations/judgments."
    Actually that's not what I was implying at all. You are quoting me out of context on that one. I was responding to your claim that I was upset by the fact that NFPs were disagreeing with my observations made in the OP. I was discounting your claim by saying that I wasn't upset by the NFP discordant responses because I was expecting them. They didn't throw me off at all.

    However, I wasn't expecting ONLY these responses. It was pretty much inevitable that some were going to respond this way, and I would have been an idiot not to expect it.

    Also, the way you used the term sort of conflated the two meanings. You said, "And I appreciate your insight. A few INFPs' opinions on Fi are not going to be very convincing arguments though. I'm not implying that you are wrong about yourself. It'd be nice to hear insights, personal, anecdotal, or theoretical, that analyze my speculations about Fi. Not just Fi users' opinions about Fi. Regardless of how much I appreciate the INFP insight, it's a pretty biased sampling pool, if you ask me." So first you are talking about numbers of INFPs when you say "a few." Then you say that you'd like to hear from others, too, supporting the numbers interpretation. However, then you say, "not just Fi users opinions about Fi." That does not refer to the number of people responding, or the distribution of types responding, but rather to the validity of Fi-user's opinions about themselves. Then you go back to talking about numbers. So it was sort of like, "well it's nice and all that you've responded, but I need to hear from more than just Fi users, and on top of that, it's just your opinion of yourself anyway, so that makes what you say even less significant towards answering my question."
    Ok Mr. nonsensical Ti rambler. Let me clear this up for you:

    I respect the NFP opinions/responses that were posted in this thread, regardless of how many or how few. However, NFPs do not represent the whole spectrum of Fi users, so I wanted to hear other opinions from other Fi users. I also wanted to hear opinions from people who don't use Fi so much to see how they felt about Fi. How much more can I say about this? I thought I made it pretty clear.

    And BTW I did read the whole thread. From my perspective, it appeared as though all contrary information was being ignored. You failed to reply to or acknowledge contradictory responses, and when you did reply (which was only to people who agreed in some way), you seemed to just continue assuming that Fi users had this pretentious quality, instead of keeping a speculative, "well I don't know if they do or not" type of attitude.
    I spent several posts responding to OrangeAppled who was blatantly disagreeing with everything I said. I also responded to Seymour and sciski who disagreed with me. Yes, I did respond to those who agreed, but I also ignored some who agreed too. I can't give a lengthy response to every single post though. You're being silly.

  8. #98
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'm not terribly in touch with my Fi, either. Most likely is my last function preference (given results of not-so-valid online tests, such as they are).

    But, I am good at taking different perspectives, putting myself in other's shoes and guessing the most likely thing they'd think given their person and the situation. A few well-placed choice questions following, usually confirms or negates my assumed perspective of theirs (Ne-Ti).
    In response to the above and all other Ne references in your last post:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ne is good at speculating about other peoples' perspectives and predicting what other people will think/feel about a given situation, and thus we can use this as a tool to help us get along with others. I know I can do this with Fi users. I'm mainly just trying to be a pain in the ass at this point because you're implying that I should put myself in Fi shoes, and they usually give my feet blisters.


    Plan B.

    (also helps when you kinda bite your inner-tongue from interpreting it as whining....allows up the buffet of perspectives, rather than a few choice meals)
    But calling it "whining" helps my ego remain garbed in its annoying, pretentious Ti mask. We wouldn't want to take that pleasure away from my ego now would we?

  9. #99
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Does anybody feel like strong Fi users are really pretentious when it comes to understanding emotions? It seems like Fi people constantly think they know how other people are feeling but are wrong many times. In my experience, Fi users seem to feel the overwhelming urge to convince me that I'm feeling a certain way. It can be kind of annoying at times, but maybe it's some times helpful?

    Why do you Fi users do this? Or is this not an Fi thing and just something I made up in my head?

    Perhaps Fi users hear another person's perspective and think in terms of how their own mind would manifest that perspective and automatically assume that the rest of the world would express it the same way, leading to flaws in their emotional analyses. [[<----BINGO!]]

    I feel like NFJs are so much better than NFPs at interpreting feelings and thinking about human behavior in terms of the feelings that guide such behaviors, but NFPs simply think they absolutely rock the world of emotional analysis. It's obnoxiously arrogant. SFPs are also more accurate than NFPs (maybe it's the Ni?). I don't know about SFJs. I think they just don't really try to overanalyze other people's heartfelt issues as much as other F types.

    Is this an Fi thing, or am I giving Fi a bad rap? Thoughts?

    I see the value in Fi when it's used more realistically, but it seems to me like oftentimes it's just completely out of control.

    Now before you Fi types start declaring how arrogant Ti is, I'm alread acknowledging this. I pretend/think that I know/understand a lot more about logical systems than the average Joe, so if you bring up arrogant Ti, please make it relevant to the issue at hand rather than a tool for bashing the NTP who started this thread, k?
    I've been saying this for months. It's absolutely true. Even more infuriating is when they talk about how they'd never push their values on anyone else because Fi is totally against that! But they're still damn sure that they know everything you're feeling better than you do, and if you disagree it's only further proof that they were right.

    I'm really glad somebody else has noticed this and pointed it out. Whenever I've pointed it out in the past, it's always assumed that I have abusive NFP parents or that an NFP ex-girlfriend broke my heart or [insert bullshit made up explanations here], anything to let NFPs continue on in steadfast denial and pretend I'm the only person who thinks this due to [made up personal bias]. Rather than try to respond reasonably to my accusations, they try to discredit me by...you guessed it: Inventing nonsensical emotional back story. It's really annoying and I'm very glad to hear someone else back me up on this.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #100
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Tesla, realize that your general way of formulating things is a very ENTP way of doing it which rubs Fi-users the wrong way. Remember when I said that you want things to making logical sense and you figure the information is in our brains and you need it? You automatically process it and find the logical inconsistencies?

    Yeah, that translates to us as you questionning us, and accusing us of things that you've interpreted...wrongly in our opinion. Where we're nonchalant in formulating precise words to specify details when it comes to intellectual data, which gets us in trouble with NTPs who like precision there, you lack precision when it comes to formulating things with precise emotional content....Your observations led you to believe that Fi comes off as pretentious. The way you formulated it though was pretty NTP...make a hypothesis and ask for people to contest it. To me, that automatically registers as a judgement. You're already believing this. And now its my job to disprove something that to me you have no business judging anyway as you clearly don't understand it?

    I *realize* that you're asking this *becoz* you wanna know. But that's only coz I have the same battle scars as SW
    I gave him some of his for that matter
    But realize we're the same. We *state* what we think you feel. And that feeling is a gut that we cannot ignore. Usually the gut is right, but the interpretation gets screwed along the way. As yours, no offense, imo, has gotten in this matter. Doesn't mean your observations are faulty though
    Same with us. We observe you're angry and frustrated. But since feelings are our bread and butter and it is not a pleasant emotion, we're trying to get to the bottom of why and wanna fix it. Hence we address the issue, not realizing that to you this is not relevant. In fact, to us, you're like a big emotionally poluting grease factory next door. And we don't get how you can ignore that stench, no offense. That's interpretation, not the reading that goes wrong. It takes experience and background knowledge about the person to get that right. Just as you require to know us a bit, and have to have experience with feelers to get what is important to us, and to understand how our brain works
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