User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 44

Thread: Si vs Ni

  1. #11
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    This is what I keep thinking too. It seems like Ni is naturally a highly analytical function, so I have an easy time understanding how it pairs with Te, which is an objective and fairly dispassionate function. Trying to imagine how Ni pairs with Fe doesn't always make sense to me, since while Ni is analytical, Fe seems to be the antithesis of analytical. To me it appears that INFJ's dispassionately see all perspectives and then they passionately latch onto one perspective seemingly at random.
    It's not totally random (sometimes one is shinier). And not always just one. Sometimes we can latch on to multiple perspectives simultaneously. When they are conflicting perspectives is when the fun really gets started.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    ...Trying to imagine how Ni pairs with Fe doesn't always make sense to me, since while Ni is analytical, Fe seems to be the antithesis of analytical. To me it appears that INFJ's dispassionately see all perspectives and then they passionately latch onto one perspective seemingly at random.
    Well, Fe is essentially using an evolving rules system that is being derived from the outer world/culture. So it can be articulated and explored and evaluated.

    If Fe is supporting Ni, then doesn't that mean that either Ni is expressing itself through the Fe value structure or otherwise that Fe is being used to fuel the direction of Ni speculation?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    To me it appears that INFJ's dispassionately see all perspectives and then they passionately latch onto one perspective seemingly at random.
    I see it more as I can compassionately see many perspectives and then integrate them into my own after open exploration followed by critical analysis.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    At its ideal, Ni provides the distance while Fe provides the attachment. Because of this, that combination can produce a strong empathy - one in which self if not projected, but becomes attached to an external perspective.

    What happens with me in any context in which two or more perspectives present themselves, is that I switch roles in my mind. That is why being in an environment laden with conflict wears me out. I simultaneously experience why one person is oppressing and how it feels to be oppressed. It is also why the company of people wears me out.

    The tertiary Ti is not necessarily that weak. With the inherent paradoxes that exist with Ni and Fe, Ti is a relief mechanism that engages best when withdrawing from external stimuli. In some ways it seems that Ti will tend to develop more strongly in INFJs because of the interaction of the dominant and secondary functions.

    I find this a very different process from how Si-Fe operates. Si-Fe doesn't look from inside various perspectives, but is very interested in the what and how others are feeling. There is more concern for how one "ought" to be feeling/behaving. Ni-Fe can become completely disassociated from "oughts" of feeling. Si-Fe provides a more structured approach to feeling, perhaps the most structured set of values of all the types? Its strength is its stability.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

    (Hence my comments elsewhere about Ni and Fe seemingly being at odds.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    This is what I keep thinking too. It seems like Ni is naturally a highly analytical function, so I have an easy time understanding how it pairs with Te, which is an objective and fairly dispassionate function. Trying to imagine how Ni pairs with Fe doesn't always make sense to me, since while Ni is analytical, Fe seems to be the antithesis of analytical. To me it appears that INFJ's dispassionately see all perspectives and then they passionately latch onto one perspective seemingly at random.
    I'm not understanding what you all are alluding to. Please explain.:confused:

    I truly believe that not many people understand what Fe is. I'm still trying to understand it and I'm Fe dominant. People think it's just rules on how to treat people and nothing more. You don't even have to mean it, just do it because everyone else does. It's completely bound and rigid. And since it's so readily apparent, everyone thinks they have it all figured out.

    And then we get the IFJ Fe which is a little different from EFJ Fe. And then we have the distinctions between INFJ/ISFJ and ESFJ/ENFJ Fe. I guess my resentment is about to come out because I see no sustained interest in trying to analyze Fe the way all other functions are analyzed and I don't have the energy or desire to respond to every comment constraining Fe to a little box that every other function (except Se, Si, and sometimes Te) is free to roam outside of.

    As for how I experience FeNi, I don't feel like my mind is being pulled apart. When I interact with people, there's always these thoughts in my mind thinking, "what's the alternative, what does this mean, what are this person's motivations?" My FeNi tries to be anticipatory of what people are going to say, or do, feel, act, behave and what I can do to be there before they get there. It's so much I really can't even describe it at length. I'm not really documenting how my mind runs as I use it.

    Like I said, I don't understand what is meant, but if I get more detail then I'll try to have a reply.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    The best way for me to describe what Ni-Fe does for me is like this...

    I perceive a situation, while primarily looking for emotional cues in a person's behavior. I have several patterns I rely on to look for these at first. I actually tend to read too much emotion/the wrong emotion into the situation/person at first, but as I watch/deal with them, I get better and better at predicting how they will feel in response to something. Interestingly, I can choose to focus on the general feelings of the people in the situation, or I can narrowly focus on the feelings of one particular person in relation to the others.

    It's almost like I slowly form a mental model of the person/situation, that's outlined in larger, more apparent features at first, and then slowly has the detail added in over time.

    Does that make sense?

    Also, it seems like as I have more experience and test new patterns while discarding less effective ones, I get better at forming that general outline more quickly and with less stumbling.

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ...I truly believe that not many people understand what Fe is. I'm still trying to understand it and I'm Fe dominant. People think it's just rules on how to treat people and nothing more. You don't even have to mean it, just do it because everyone else does. It's completely bound and rigid. And since it's so readily apparent, everyone thinks they have it all figured out. ..
    Well, I know I don't think that... even if I just give a one-line explanation sometimes. (Just as I usually give a one-line description for Ti or Ne. I just happen to understand those better because I have more experience with them.)

    Fe is not *just* rules. But just as you can specify "good thinking" from "bad thinking" -- logical fallacies versus coherent structured thinking-- (in regards to Ti), you can also describe the rules being used by those with good Fe.

    The thing with extroverted Fe is that it is very organic. Yes, there is a certain subtext to everything that is said and done in a social setting, and Fe is the ability to recognize and use that subtext to accomplish one's goals, whether that is to help and encourage people, or bring a community together, or stir up people against an injustice, or challenge a preconception. Fe can be used for a number of things. It allows for that awareness of subtext.

    I think there IS a difference between Fi and Fe in the sense it's hard to fake Fi (if it is possible at all), whereas one CAN fake Fe to suggest feelings that do not actually exist. On the positive, it can also be used to suggest feelings that a person WISHED they felt but do not... and still possess the good intentions of those missing feelings. So just because Fe and feelings are not one and the same, they can still compensate for each other, for good purposes.

    Fe is NOT bound and rigid, at least not as used by extroverted types. ESFJ are much more fluid/flexible than ISFJs, for example. ISFJ is always going inside and referencing their inner template, then expressing what THEY think should be the social standard. ESFJ is much more receptive to what is actually going on right in that moment, in real life; they are not detached from the sensory flow / lifeforce like an introvert is. So ESFJ is very much aware that the standards are always changing or being tweaked, and although one can articulate a collection of general social rules, they are never exactly perfect... because the situation itself is unique and has its own "real-time" reality, and an extroverted Fe is flexing to accommodate that.

    that is my best shot at the moment in dumping my main thoughts about Fe. Am I dreadfully off-base, or is there something of value there? Please feel free to build off these ideas or correct them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fe is not *just* rules. But just as you can specify "good thinking" from "bad thinking" -- logical fallacies versus coherent structured thinking-- (in regards to Ti), you can also describe the rules being used by those with good Fe.
    I agree. I also agree with proteanmix regarding the general misunderstanding of Fe. I see Fe as an open awareness of the value-based information in the environment. The extroverted versions of the functions have less internal structuring and are in a way more open-ended than the introverted forms. It is also likely the least "fake" of any function having a child-like immediacy.

    From what I understand Si combined with Fe is what provides external structuring of behavior. When Ni is combined with Fe, the result is different, but also involves structuring. When Fe is the dominant over either of these, its open-ended nature will redirect either the Si or Ni.

    From my understanding Fe is one of the most open-ended functions always exploring new contexts for how values and the subjective world interrelate. I see Fe as being the most likely to be able to see the world through another subjective frame of reference. It is the raw material of empathy. That is what I know of it so far.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #19
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fe is not *just* rules. But just as you can specify "good thinking" from "bad thinking" -- logical fallacies versus coherent structured thinking-- (in regards to Ti), you can also describe the rules being used by those with good Fe.
    I know it's not just etiquette rules, but try convincing other people! But the feeling I'm getting from people is that that's basically all there is to it. I mean how do I tell people how I experience Fe? To even explain it sounds fake. I care about people. I have a very real and active concern about people I come into contact with, no matter how limited our time is together. It's real and it's happening and I care about you, right then and there and it's not forced or just being nice. It's sincere and I feel it. If it comes out as "how are you doing" then I want to know how you are doing. No, I'm not particularly picky about who gets it and if that seems fake then, I feel a little sad for people who can't experience what it feels like to actually care about a person who you've just met. I'm not saying I have feelings for them like I'm in love or something, it's just that I care about them. And yes it may be gone when I'm not around you, but the doesn't mean it's empty and it varies in levels and intensity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think there IS a difference between Fi and Fe in the sense it's hard to fake Fi (if it is possible at all), whereas one CAN fake Fe to suggest feelings that do not actually exist. On the positive, it can also be used to suggest feelings that a person WISHED they felt but do not... and still possess the good intentions of those missing feelings. So just because Fe and feelings are not one and the same, they can still compensate for each other, for good purposes.
    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by faking Fe or Fi, but we've had this conversation before and I don't want to rehash what's already been said. What I will say is I think people are confusing social norms and mores with Fe.

    I asked other ENFJs this question and I hope I'll get some replies about this. I distinguish between my personal feelings and more general feelings. Usually the two overlap, but not always. Fe/Fi aren't feelings, they're functions, vehicles, or pathways. I don't consider Fe my feelings anymore than Te/Ti are thoughts. They're both modes of expressing rationality. Paired with Ni or Si gives it flavor, but I don't see how the functions are diametrically opposed.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #20
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Well, I don't know what it's like for E_FJ's... but I know that most of the time I don't "fake" Fe. I pretty much feel what I say I'm feeling most of the time. Sometimes I do fake it a bit to be nice, especially if I'm exhausted or worried, but definitely not always. I've also faked Fi at times, you practically have to if you want to avoid offending an IxFP... and it takes a lot of energy and maneuvering to do. When I try to fake Fi, it feels like I'm trying to evade an insidious/invasive security protocol by using ever more complex "spoofing" data, and I have to withdraw before the pattern gets too complex to follow. And I really can't do it without a hint of guilt either, so I tend to keep a distance from IxFP's... I don't really understand them, no matter how much I want to. Well, actually it's less of a problem if they have Ne developed... that was more for the extremely Fi ones.

Similar Threads

  1. Si Vs Ni: It Ain't Tradition
    By Owfin in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 01-16-2012, 10:57 PM
  2. [JCF] Si vs Ni
    By cogdecree in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-20-2010, 06:42 AM
  3. Quick thought about Ne/Si vs Ni/Se
    By sciski in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-12-2010, 01:02 PM
  4. Ni vs. Si comparative Ni TEST
    By musttry in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 136
    Last Post: 04-07-2010, 10:36 AM
  5. Explanation for SJs dislike of change [Si vs Ne/Ni/Se]
    By Snow Turtle in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-23-2008, 06:37 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO