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  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Default Quasi-temperaments and other thoughts.

    Okay, I recently posted this in another thread in response to a question, and someone suggested that I add it to a new thread... here it is. What I've done is defined "Quasi" temperaments by selecting the types that would seem to be most similar to a particular temperament, excepting the actual members of that temperament.

    Quasi-Rationals: INFJ, ENFP, ESTJ, ISTP.

    Quasi-Idealists: INTJ, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFP.

    Quasi-Guardians: INTJ, ENTJ, INFJ, ENFJ.

    Quasi-Artisans: INTP, ENTP, ENFP, INFP.

    Interestingly, you can quickly see from this that IS_J's and ES_P's are the most strongly concentrated versions of their respective temperaments, as they don't show up at all. Upon further inspection, you notice that dominant Judgment types (IP's and EJ's) show up once, while dominant N types show up twice. This shows that stronger N's typically tend to spread their interests across a greater spectrum, and have tendencies in multiple directions, while most S's tend to be more predictable and focused in their interests, and probably make better specialists in any given field. But more importantly, it shows that IN_P's and EN_J's should be the most concentrated versions of their respective temperaments, because the N element is submitted to T or F, making the "filtered" element of N that creates the division in the Intuitive temperaments in the first place more pronounced.

    Given how we usually think of N as being more creative and innovative, and S as more stable and reliable, it makes sense that the stronger the S, the more stable their expressions/motivations would be, and the stronger the N, the more spread out their motivations would be. This explains why INxJ's are often confused about their type... INFJ's often have Idealist, Guardian, and Rational motivations to some extent. I noticed this myself several as I was trying to type myself by temperament, a common method. I found that I could find something of myself in all of the temperament descriptions aside from SP, which just stood out as, "No, that's nothing like me."

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    An interesting theory. I am not that adept in juggling lists of functions to immediately see, how the functions work out I think there are temperaments closer and farther to other major temperaments, and your suggestions seem reasonable.

    I particularly agree on quasi-guardians, all of them..

    I don't know about ISFP as quasi-idealist, so I don't know whether to agree or disagree. I just don't know them enough.

    I have great reservations to consider ENFP as a rational. Some that I have met could pass for a rational, some seem to have abandoned rationality. I'd still say that there is a better than average chance that ENFP may be considered somewhat like a rational. Not a person like findthejake, tho. No offense. It wouldn't be impossible that a keen mind would be hidden inside the fruit-cakey appearance.

    Quasi-artisans, I agree but with reservations on INTP.

    Quasi-idealists, all seem somewhat reasonable, INTJ the most.

  3. #3
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    What makes NJs quasi-guardians? Te/Fe? Ni?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #4
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    An interesting theory. I am not that adept in juggling lists of functions to immediately see, how the functions work out I think there are temperaments closer and farther to other major temperaments, and your suggestions seem reasonable.

    I particularly agree on quasi-guardians, all of them..

    I don't know about ISFP as quasi-idealist, so I don't know whether to agree or disagree. I just don't know them enough.

    I have great reservations to consider ENFP as a rational. Some that I have met could pass for a rational, some seem to have abandoned rationality. I'd still say that there is a better than average chance that ENFP may be considered somewhat like a rational. Not a person like findthejake, tho. No offense. It wouldn't be impossible that a keen mind would be hidden inside the fruit-cakey appearance.

    Quasi-artisans, I agree but with reservations on INTP.

    Quasi-idealists, all seem somewhat reasonable, INTJ the most.
    It was based only on functional order, not actual people, so it might be off in terms of tested/understood type, because of the limitations of testing skewing people of one type to different one than they should occupy in the model.

    Out of curiosity, Would you think that an ENFP has a better chance of appearing that way than an INFP, because they can use Te better if it's developed?

    Also, the few ISFP's I've seen seemed very similar to INFP's. I think it would make sense to assume they were similar, because INTP's and ISTP's are often considered to be similar in various ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What makes NJs quasi-guardians? Te/Fe? Ni?
    Te and Fe mainly. Also, they were the only J's remaining aside from SJ's. All other possible types had a fairly strong Extraverted perceiving function, making them considerably more different in expression/motivation from SJ's. I mainly meant that NJ's were the types aside from SJ's mostly likely to show SJ-ish behaviors.

  5. #5
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    athenian200 (and other readers of the thread), did you see meanlittlechimp's temperament crossover thread? Your systems have similarities but also differences.

  6. #6
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Te and Fe mainly. Also, they were the only J's remaining aside from SJ's. All other possible types had a fairly strong Extraverted perceiving function, making them considerably more different in expression/motivation from SJ's. I mainly meant that NJ's were the types aside from SJ's mostly likely to show SJ-ish behaviors.
    What do you consider SJish behaviors? Si is what makes SJs Guardians, not Te and Fe.

    ETA: I see more similarities between NJs/SPs and SJs/NPs. These sets share all of cognitive processes. Although I understand how they look superficially alike.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #7
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    athenian200 (and other readers of the thread), did you see meanlittlechimp's temperament crossover thread? Your systems have similarities but also differences.
    Yes, actually. I also thought along those lines, but this seemed to make more sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What do you consider SJish behaviors? Si is what makes SJs Guardians, not Te and Fe.
    So you're proposing that NP's are more SJ-ish than NJ's?

    To me, SJ-ish behavior is making plans, organizing, dealing with things in an structured manner, etc. The difference between SJ's and NJ's is that SJ's focus more on the specific method/standard used performing the task, while the NJ focuses more on the underlying goal. Both of them ultimately focus on a goal and deal with things in terms of it, but they internally perceive the goals differently. The perceiving process is less visible in both SJ's and NJ's, while the judgment is more obvious. Does that make sense?

  8. #8
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    okay, in order to know if i'm getting what you're saying, here's a question. are you saying these types have so much in common (or overlap in appearance) that they are easiest to confuse with one another? even, depending on the person, to themselves?

    Quasi-Idealists: INTJ, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFP.

    because just having ESFJ that close to me in text makes me cringe.

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    okay, in order to know if i'm getting what you're saying, here's a question. are you saying these types have so much in common (or overlap in appearance) that they are easiest to confuse with one another? even, depending on the person, to themselves?

    Quasi-Idealists: INTJ, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFP.

    because just having ESFJ that close to me in text makes me cringe. :eek:
    No, I don't think that ENTP's are similar to ESFJ's.

    I just meant that all four of those types are most similar to the four Idealist types, aside from those types themselves, for two reasons.

    1. They all have one of the functions related to that temperament as dominant, and the other as tertiary... meaning it's less of a weakness than it would be otherwise.

    2. They're the most similar to a particular member of that temperament.

    INTJ -- INFJ

    ENTP -- ENFP

    ESFJ -- ENFJ

    ISFP -- INFP

    Does that make sense?

  10. #10
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    So you're proposing that NP's are more SJ-ish than NJ's?

    To me, SJ-ish behavior is making plans, organizing, dealing with things in an structured manner, etc. The difference between SJ's and NJ's is that SJ's focus more on the specific method/standard used performing the task, while the NJ focuses more on the underlying goal. Both of them ultimately focus on a goal and deal with things in terms of it, but they internally perceive the goals differently. The perceiving process is less visible in both SJ's and NJ's, while the judgment is more obvious. Does that make sense?
    Yeah it makes sense. I understand why you made your list the way you did. I'm not saying NPs are more SJish, but I do think they have more in common with underlying motivations. I think that by looking at external factors like organizing, implementing, and structuring yes they look alike. Se-Ni, Si-Ne are like balances more than Si-Ni and Ne-Se are. It just depends on your point of departure.

    I think that if you focus on another set of similarities that list could be completely rearranged. Look at how driven to action and implementation NJs are and how competency focused SPs are. Is that Te/Fe or Se? NPs (INPs more than ENPs) seem really connected to their memories and past experiences to inform Fi and Ti. ENPs try to escape from their Si but it has a very strong pull on them.

    Even by looking at the archetypes of the, the inferior function is listed as the aspirational. That means you consciously or unconsciously seek to gain mastery of it. I'm thinking that means you want to connect with it more fully so that it's not as troubling to you. NJs seek to gain more competency over Se and NPs seek to gain competency over Si. Same thing with SPs they seek to be more in touch with their Ni and SJs with Ne. It seems like NPs and SJs are moving towards the same thing, just as NJs and SPs. Since they're trying to gain the strengths that the other has, shouldn't they look more alike unconsciously?

    OK, I'm stopping now until I think more. Does this make sense??
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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