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  1. #11
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    No, I don't think that ENTP's are similar to ESFJ's.

    I just meant that all four of those types are most similar to the four Idealist types, aside from those types themselves, for two reasons.

    1. They all have one of the functions related to that temperament as dominant, and the other as tertiary... meaning it's less of a weakness than it would be otherwise.

    2. They're the most similar to a particular member of that temperament.

    INTJ -- INFJ

    ENTP -- ENFP

    ESFJ -- ENFJ

    ISFP -- INFP

    Does that make sense?
    ah, gotcha. okay, that makes a lot more sense. not to mention i can now relax my sphincter.
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  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah it makes sense. I understand why you made your list the way you did. I'm not saying NPs are more SJish, but I do think they have more in common with underlying motivations. I think that by looking at external factors like organizing, implementing, and structuring yes they look alike. Se-Ni, Si-Ne are like balances more than Si-Ni and Ne-Se are. It just depends on your point of departure.

    I think that if you focus on another set of similarities that list could be completely rearranged. Look at how driven to action and implementation NJs are and how competency focused SPs are. Is that Te/Fe or Se? NPs (INPs more than ENPs) seem really connected to their memories and past experiences to inform Fi and Ti. ENPs try to escape from their Si but it has a very strong pull on them.

    Even by looking at the archetypes of the, the inferior function is listed as the aspirational. That means you consciously or unconsciously seek to gain mastery of it. I'm thinking that means you want to connect with it more fully so that it's not as troubling to you. NJs seek to gain more competency over Se and NPs seek to gain competency over Si. Same thing with SPs they seek to be more in touch with their Ni and SJs with Ne. It seems like NPs and SJs are moving towards the same thing, just as NJs and SPs. Since they're trying to gain the strengths that the other has, shouldn't they look more alike unconsciously?

    OK, I'm stopping now until I think more. Does this make sense??
    Yes. I was focusing more on the obvious/superficial motivations in that case. In fact, I have another, separate idea about this that works if you accept Beebe's ideas about the layout of functions... it's reminiscent of Socionic "quadras." But I don't personally get along well with SP's, so I didn't really want to bring this out at first. Since you do, however, it might be relevant. (Although for the record, I disagree with calling the inferior "aspirational." I have no Se aspirations... in fact I'm pretty opposed to Se most of the time.)

    1: ESTP, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTP

    2: ESFP, INTJ, ISFP, ENTJ

    3: INFP, ESTJ, ENFP, ISTJ

    4: INTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ENTP

  3. #13
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I noticed this myself several as I was trying to type myself by temperament, a common method. I found that I could find something of myself in all of the temperament descriptions aside from SP, which just stood out as, "No, that's nothing like me."

    What do you think?
    When I looked at things that way, Guardian was the only one that I saw virtually nothing to relate to in.

    I'm fairly convinced I'm INFP, but I see a lot of myself in INTP and INFJ. A little bit of myself in INTJ, and ISFP.

    I know you have referenced enneagrams before and I have not previously commented on those threads, but I also consider myself a 4w5. I think 4w5s of any type will likely relate to both NF and NT, and a 4w3 would be more likely to relate to NF and SP. I do relate to the adventure/fun seeking (experience and enjoy life) side of SP as an aspirational/envy role but overall relate more to NTs than SPs as far as out of temperament commonalities. I would further speculate that Ne is what drives me to both question and try to understand things (as an NTP would) and to want to take in new experiences as an SP would (and SP would be drivin be Se to want similar things, but how the actual experience is percieved is what would differ).

  4. #14
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Given how we usually think of N as being more creative and innovative, and S as more stable and reliable, it makes sense that the stronger the S, the more stable their expressions/motivations would be, and the stronger the N, the more spread out their motivations would be. This explains why INxJ's are often confused about their type... INFJ's often have Idealist, Guardian, and Rational motivations to some extent. I noticed this myself several as I was trying to type myself by temperament, a common method. I found that I could find something of myself in all of the temperament descriptions aside from SP, which just stood out as, "No, that's nothing like me."

    What do you think?
    Temperament-wise, NF for me was first and I actually think SP was second!!! :-) [I only did one 'temperament test', though, so don't know that it was accurate. But even reading the descriptions, I could 'relate' to SP on a few levels, and I think SJ was the one that resonated least]

    For me, I know what I'm definitely not. Definitely NOT: ESTJ, ESTP, ESFJ, ESFP, ENTJ, ENTP, ISTP, ISTJ

    Profiles I read that I 'understand' and don't seem entirely foreign: ENFP, ENFJ, ISFP, ISFJ, INTP

    Profiles I read that I see a lot more similarities to, depending on my mood: INFx and INTJ, with INFx being the absolute closest, and my having settled on INFJ because I just don't see that much 'P' in how I carry out my life day to day.

    Factoring in cognitive functions [which I'm not entirely sure I can do accurately without being biased in my own perception of myself - example: I usually self-evaluate myself as having low Fe, although the reality is that I think I exhibit it quite a lot in how I handle relationships], there's nothing terribly clearcut. Consistently: Ni and Fi are highest. Te is lowest. Everything else is moderate. According to Cognitive-function tests, closest fit for me is INFP or ISFP.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah it makes sense. I understand why you made your list the way you did. I'm not saying NPs are more SJish, but I do think they have more in common with underlying motivations. I think that by looking at external factors like organizing, implementing, and structuring yes they look alike. Se-Ni, Si-Ne are like balances more than Si-Ni and Ne-Se are. It just depends on your point of departure.

    I think that if you focus on another set of similarities that list could be completely rearranged. Look at how driven to action and implementation NJs are and how competency focused SPs are. Is that Te/Fe or Se? NPs (INPs more than ENPs) seem really connected to their memories and past experiences to inform Fi and Ti. ENPs try to escape from their Si but it has a very strong pull on them.

    Even by looking at the archetypes of the, the inferior function is listed as the aspirational. That means you consciously or unconsciously seek to gain mastery of it. I'm thinking that means you want to connect with it more fully so that it's not as troubling to you. NJs seek to gain more competency over Se and NPs seek to gain competency over Si. Same thing with SPs they seek to be more in touch with their Ni and SJs with Ne. It seems like NPs and SJs are moving towards the same thing, just as NJs and SPs. Since they're trying to gain the strengths that the other has, shouldn't they look more alike unconsciously?

    OK, I'm stopping now until I think more. Does this make sense??
    This makes perfect sense to me & I agree with the idea.

    Take my mother & I for example. She's an ESTP and I'm an INFJ. We share the same top four functions and we literally feed off of one another. There are times when she makes me want to rip out my hair, but for the most part, we UNDERSTAND one another's underlying motivations because we use the same functions. I find that my INTP buddy & ISTJ father seem to have the same motivations when it comes down to it - namely with the Si. Both of them have the habit of comparing everything to past experience & making judgements based on it. My INFP brother does this as well - and he & the INTP will both occasionally be immobilized by their Si. My mother & I rarely ever compare things to the past & I find my boyfriend (possible ISTP) rarely compares the present & the future to the past.

  6. #16
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietgirl View Post
    This makes perfect sense to me & I agree with the idea.

    Take my mother & I for example. She's an ESTP and I'm an INFJ. We share the same top four functions and we literally feed off of one another. There are times when she makes me want to rip out my hair, but for the most part, we UNDERSTAND one another's underlying motivations because we use the same functions. I find that my INTP buddy & ISTJ father seem to have the same motivations when it comes down to it - namely with the Si. Both of them have the habit of comparing everything to past experience & making judgements based on it. My INFP brother does this as well - and he & the INTP will both occasionally be immobilized by their Si. My mother & I rarely ever compare things to the past & I find my boyfriend (possible ISTP) rarely compares the present & the future to the past.
    One of the things that helped me cement my ENFJ type is I figured out how comfortable using Ne vs Se I was. If I were an ESFJ, Ne would be my tertiary. I just don't think I can consciously call Ne forth from the deep. I have zero nostalgic tendencies which would be indicative of Si and very little romantic attachment to objects. I also tried to see how much I like to relive experiences or if I can recall past experiences without the need to do them again. Sometimes I feel like if I don't do something repeatedly I'm never going to remember what it feels like (immature Se). I think unconscious motivations are more indicative of similarities than P and J preferences.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #17
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Hmmm..this is very interesting. I often get nostalgic about the past and get warm fuzzies thinking about previous phases of my life, and enjoy looking at photos and remembering past events, which is apparently Si. Um....what does this mean??

    Just another reason for me to think I'm an INFJ/INFP/INTJ/xxxx mutt.

  8. #18
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Hmmm..this is very interesting. I often get nostalgic about the past and get warm fuzzies thinking about previous phases of my life, and enjoy looking at photos and remembering past events, which is apparently Si. Um....what does this mean??

    Just another reason for me to think I'm an INFJ/INFP/INTJ/xxxx mutt.
    It means nothing. We use all eight of our cognitive processes. It's not like I don't get the warm fuzzies thinking about the past either, but I tend to not dwell on or romanticize it very much. And plus if you're an INFJ who's processes have developed normally, Si would be "higher up" in your functions than mine although it exists in the shadow for both of us.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Hmmm..this is very interesting. I often get nostalgic about the past and get warm fuzzies thinking about previous phases of my life, and enjoy looking at photos and remembering past events, which is apparently Si. Um....what does this mean??

    Just another reason for me to think I'm an INFJ/INFP/INTJ/xxxx mutt.
    I don't really care for nostalgia too much, but I do get the warm fuzzies when looking at pictures too! It's more that when something is over, I tend to shut the door on it completely & I don't take it into consideration when dealing with the present. Of course that comes back to bite me on a few occasions (they say history has a way of repeating itself!), but I simply do not naturally access it in my normal thought/feeling/reaction process.

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