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  1. #61
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Astrology isn't causal guys, it gives an understanding of resources available to people not outcome, hence people may have the agression to be an axe murderer, but choose to use that agression to promote world peace... ultimately all astrology can say is you have the agression as an oporuntunity in the first place.

    As for evidence MBTI ought to be provable, it's only a segmentation albeit preference reporting, it can be impeirically tests for significant differences but has not.

    test of Astrology can only be done at a rather crude level because, like psycology (which is basically human and their behaviour at complex) are too diverse, it would be easier to test astrological princiaps like humours against behaviour and measure the retrofit.

    Ie % spent on communications (net, mobile, landline) and degree of coleric (with the eception of b2b dialogues - which would be melancolic)... that is a stutably big behaviour.

    All in all guys astrology is NOT causal - which is a misunderstanding... guys we are off topic, this was suppose to collate information for the OP not yet another banter about validity...

  2. #62
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    And you don't think any of this might be due to...I don't know, random chance?

    If you can show this sort of similarity over any kind of significant sample of "astral twins", maybe the scientific community will start taking you seriously.
    the odds of random change would be massively against this... it would be one hell of a long shot

    Yea..........but I'm not trying to prove this stuff, I don't need to.

    I know I think, but the so called scientific community can't proved thoughts. They can not seperate strands of thoguth or measure them... they suspect thinking happens in the rban because they can see chemical reactions, but they can't prove thought..... I'm assuming you don't beleive you think because there is no scientific evidence of thinking....

    I am of course pulling your leg, science is a limiting factor and ought to be treated with some skepticism, as a limitation not a constraint.

    100 years ago deaf kids were considered dumb, because we had no way to communicate with them. 100 years ago we didn't have viruses of hormones becuase the microscopes were not powerful enough, does that mean they don't exsists? Be careful of what you don't belive in because of lack of impirical evidence.

    There is a great thread on auras here, that report some impirical evidence that they exists and are pretty revolutionary in tersm fo healing opportunitites... personally I choose to belive, I expect you to be skeptical becuase you seem to see a tape measure as the deciding factor.

    One of the sub plots of Harry Potter was the way JK dealt with Hermioney V's Luna Lovegood.... Hermioney - is a die hard text book learner, if there is no evidence she doesn't beleive. Luna beleives in the extraordinary... a die hard INTP I'd think... but the point is she beleives in things without evidience, and her superiority of perspective is absolutely clear in the final book, when she rises way above Hermioney. Jk's perspective is about structure v's unstructed thought, it is a brave sub polot because JK is quite clearly a structured thinker and yet she backs unsttructure thinking and the boundary breaker.

    If you read up on thinking as a subject/topic - there is earth thinking and water... both are valued, they are just different.

    OK enough migrating off subject, if you want to chew the fat - yet again on astrology, can I suggest your revive one of the dead threads of post a new one... I will chatt to you about it, but understanding repeating Evidence,. Evidence, Evidence is pretty weary, lots of thigns are unprovable because of sciences limits not beacause they dont' exsist

  3. #63
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    INTJ
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    Libra sun, Scorpio rising, Pisces moon

    I could see you finding a correlation between MBTI and Enneagram, but I doubt you'll find one with astrology, at least not with a data set the size you'll get from this post.

    The problem with trying to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram -- leaving aside the question of whether astrology is actually sound -- is that the sun sign is such a small part of one's astrological birth chart. If you've ever gotten a full reading of your natal chart, it usually contains over 100 different data points, from aspects between different planetary bodies (and their midpoints), to locations of planetary bodies within houses, etc., and all of these data points are supposedly meaningful.

    Thus, looking at the attempt to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram this way, seems extremely flawed.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    INTJ
    8w9
    Libra sun, Scorpio rising, Pisces moon

    I could see you finding a correlation between MBTI and Enneagram, but I doubt you'll find one with astrology, at least not with a data set the size you'll get from this post.

    The problem with trying to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram -- leaving aside the question of whether astrology is actually sound -- is that the sun sign is such a small part of one's astrological birth chart. If you've ever gotten a full reading of your natal chart, it usually contains over 100 different data points, from aspects between different planetary bodies (and their midpoints), to locations of planetary bodies within houses, etc., and all of these data points are supposedly meaningful.

    Thus, looking at the attempt to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram this way, seems extremely flawed.
    Agreed.

    Welcome to the forum, Zara.

  5. #65
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    INFJ
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    To the OP:

    What exactly are you trying to understand?
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  6. #66
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Zarathustra

    Welcome to the board, nice to have someone who knows their stuff,

    Lis

  7. #67
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    I think the difference between MBTI and astrology is that MBTI doesnt necessarily claim to be metaphysical (depending on which theorist; Jung did, but other people dont).

    --MBTI is a great map. It doesnt claim to be the territory. Its a self response inventory. ENFJ doesnt have to be a "real" thing with metaphysical causal essence. Its simply an idea that a lot of people all agree on, "hey i identify with ENFJ too!".

    --Astrology claims to have causal powers. It claims that a time and space positioning of planets has a causal and metaphysical effect on humans. Its not just a self response inventory. Its metaphysical because its not really measurable in a postriori synthetic sense. We cant perform scientific inductive reasoning because there isn't a way to control the variables in a repeated fashion. We can't infer the existence of a naturalistic causation because the variable control would be such a nightmare (the phenomena are at the level of existence itself, so how will you control the variables?). Its not a priori analytic knowledge either, so it falls under a priori synthetic and therefore metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge is perfectly fine and logical, when it stays as metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge can be as real as "2 + 2 = 4" when its only being "true for you". Metaphysical knowledge though isn't really transferable because its so perception dependent, and therefore its not really "provable to others".

    example: The astrological system can be as true as "2 + 2 = 4" for tinkerbell, based on the metaphysical perceptions that make it "true for her". I however, can never really share her metaphysical perceptions. I can never share whatever metaphysical perception allows her to know that the Titan moon doesnt have causal effects, while the earth moon does. I can however share whatever descriptions I've mapped out to people who self-identify as ENFJ. Im not claiming my maps are causal, because the map isnt the territory (it isnt metaphysically "real").

    So to sum up the issues:
    --Both Astrology and "MBTI with metaphysical functions" are perfectly logical and sound, when they remain metaphysical belief systems. When both claims to be physical, and not metaphysical, then they become psudo-science (because they cant ever reach the level of induction that modern science requires).
    --MBTI without metaphysical functions, can however reach a level postriori synthetic, because we can measure who self assesses themselves as identifying with "the map" of certain MBTI types (nothing metaphysical is being claimed to be real).
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Astrology isn't causal guys, it gives an understanding of resources available to people not outcome, hence people may have the agression to be an axe murderer, but choose to use that agression to promote world peace... ultimately all astrology can say is you have the agression as an oporuntunity in the first place.
    Its causal not in the determinist sense that I think you are defending against. I mean its causal in the sense that there is *something* about the planet locations that exerts its effect. Otherwise how would the planets exert any effect? A good example is a DNA gene. DNA doesnt genetically determine what you may do in life, but certain genes may give a higher propensity for events to occur (this is identical to your astrology point ). The DNA however still has a mechanical mechanism that clearly links its effects to the DNA code. The mechanism of transcription/translation of protein units is not deterministic, but its clearly causal.

    Under astrology, there must be some sort of causal or mechanism link to the planets and our behavior, even if they don't determine the outcomes.

    If the connection between the planets was not obtained by recognition of a mechanism or correlating results (there can only ever be one Janaury 10th 2001), where did all of this astrological knowledge come from? (im sincerely asking )

  8. #68
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post

    Under astrology, there must be some sort of causal or mechanism link to the planets and our behavior, even if they don't determine the outcomes.
    Googling for possibilities takes minutes.

    Science and astrology: the proof in astrophysics

    If you want to argue his theory after reading that, go call him.

  9. #69
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Type: INTP

    Enneagram: 5w4 (perhaps 4w5)

    Sun Sign: Aries

    Yep, if you take the INTP description, mix in the Aries characteristics and some of the enneagram 4 and 5 stuff, that's me (along with the secret ingredient of course....)

  10. #70
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    enfp
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    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

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