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  1. #51
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Ok to share a personal example, I have an astral twin born 2 minutes after me, in Gautamal... I know his girlfriend online because we did a class together.

    Ok we had similar types of upbrining (our MBTIs don't match, although I beleive he is a rationalist not the same type).

    OK with astrology when the genders are reversed it works slightly differently.

    His mum died within weeks of my dad dieing (not to the day but within the same qurter)
    His dad died within weeks even closer to my mum (we are talking c.4 weeks)

    In the same period I was bugled 3 times and had all sorts of crime happening to and around me, he also had 2 buglaries, and had to change addess as I did in the UK.

    Now those are top line, and I've not explored in huge dpeth, but this is a guy I've chatted to once for 5 minutes, I've never met him, and he lives in a very different country to me... but major life events happened close enough for me to see parralles. From your perspective they are not to the day, but from my perspective the astorlogy at the time is similar enough in transit time to be good enough to draw parallels..

    As you can imagine there are plenty of ways we differ too, but big stuff seem to align

  2. #52
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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  3. #53
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Aeris, Type 8, ENFP. I happen to think they all correlate extremely well together.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Someone has posted a thread that is asking for people to share information not for you to pooh in
    Simulated Pooh?

  5. #55
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    As I've said before, we've had this conversation you don't want the answer... there is something called astral twins.

    There is a study by Gauquelin (?Sp) which did formal quant research. I'd say astrologers are like psycologist, AWFUL at research, most psycological research is nothign short of PANTS, small non indepdnant sample sizes, MASSIVE skewed findings. MBTI has no scientific testing behind it acroding to wiki... which is quite funny I think

    I don't see the point in going round in circles with you its seriously dull, and just roaring that you think it's all rubbish just makes you seem uneducated. My original point was that astrology isn't about a month or even a day, it's abotu a specific moment in time and space... that is totally uneque.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Ok to share a personal example, I have an astral twin born 2 minutes after me, in Gautamal... I know his girlfriend online because we did a class together.

    Ok we had similar types of upbrining (our MBTIs don't match, although I beleive he is a rationalist not the same type).

    OK with astrology when the genders are reversed it works slightly differently.

    His mum died within weeks of my dad dieing (not to the day but within the same qurter)
    His dad died within weeks even closer to my mum (we are talking c.4 weeks)

    In the same period I was bugled 3 times and had all sorts of crime happening to and around me, he also had 2 buglaries, and had to change addess as I did in the UK.

    Now those are top line, and I've not explored in huge dpeth, but this is a guy I've chatted to once for 5 minutes, I've never met him, and he lives in a very different country to me... but major life events happened close enough for me to see parralles. From your perspective they are not to the day, but from my perspective the astorlogy at the time is similar enough in transit time to be good enough to draw parallels..

    As you can imagine there are plenty of ways we differ too, but big stuff seem to align
    I think the difference between MBTI and astrology is that MBTI doesnt necessarily claim to be metaphysical (depending on which theorist; Jung did, but other people dont).

    --MBTI is a great map. It doesnt claim to be the territory. Its a self response inventory. ENFJ doesnt have to be a "real" thing with metaphysical causal essence. Its simply an idea that a lot of people all agree on, "hey i identify with ENFJ too!".

    --Astrology claims to have causal powers. It claims that a time and space positioning of planets has a causal and metaphysical effect on humans. Its not just a self response inventory. Its metaphysical because its not really measurable in a postriori synthetic sense. We cant perform scientific inductive reasoning because there isn't a way to control the variables in a repeated fashion. We can't infer the existence of a naturalistic causation because the variable control would be such a nightmare (the phenomena are at the level of existence itself, so how will you control the variables?). Its not a priori analytic knowledge either, so it falls under a priori synthetic and therefore metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge is perfectly fine and logical, when it stays as metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge can be as real as "2 + 2 = 4" when its only being "true for you". Metaphysical knowledge though isn't really transferable because its so perception dependent, and therefore its not really "provable to others".

    example: The astrological system can be as true as "2 + 2 = 4" for tinkerbell, based on the metaphysical perceptions that make it "true for her". I however, can never really share her metaphysical perceptions. I can never share whatever metaphysical perception allows her to know that the Titan moon doesnt have causal effects, while the earth moon does. I can however share whatever descriptions I've mapped out to people who self-identify as ENFJ. Im not claiming my maps are causal, because the map isnt the territory (it isnt metaphysically "real").

    So to sum up the issues:
    --Both Astrology and "MBTI with metaphysical functions" are perfectly logical and sound, when they remain metaphysical belief systems. When both claims to be physical, and not metaphysical, then they become psudo-science (because they cant ever reach the level of induction that modern science requires).
    --MBTI without metaphysical functions, can however reach a level postriori synthetic, because we can measure who self assesses themselves as identifying with "the map" of certain MBTI types (nothing metaphysical is being claimed to be real).

  6. #56
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  7. #57
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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  8. #58
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    As I've said before, we've had this conversation you don't want the answer... there is something called astral twins.

    There is a study by Gauquelin (?Sp) which did formal quant research. I'd say astrologers are like psycologist, AWFUL at research, most psycological research is nothign short of PANTS, small non indepdnant sample sizes, MASSIVE skewed findings. MBTI has no scientific testing behind it acroding to wiki... which is quite funny I think
    Really? Can you link to some of this research?

    By the way, MBTI has no scientific testing because it's not scientific. All the categories are arbitrarily defined and there's never any empirical claim made.

    Typology just says, "Ok, people who do this, this and that, I'm going to arbitrarily label type X. People who do this, this and that instead, I'm going to arbitrarily label type Y." We don't claim that everyone born at x date/time/place must be an ESFJ; "ESFJ" is just a made up label that we stick on people who behave a certain way. If their behaviors don't line up with the ESFJ profile, we just move them to a different category. You can't move someone to a different astrological category because that would involve changing their birth place/date/time.

    You see how there's not actually any proposition to be proven? It's just one possible categorization system; there's no claim to be tested. Nobody thinks it's "scientific fact" that you're an ISFP or whatever type. All it says is, "We could call this kind of person this name, and other kinds that name, based on a system we made up ourselves."

    If you wanted to categorize people using names like "Scorpio" or "Aries" based purely on behavioral patterns, placing them in arbitrarily made up categories, that would be equivalent to MBTI. It's not scientific in any way; it's just one possible way of organizing data. Think of it like musical genres--typology is just genres of people. You can't test or prove that Jennifer is INTP any more than you can test or "prove" that Led Zeppelin was a rock band. The term "rock band" is just an arbitrary label we assign to a group for indexing and categorization purposes; it's not scientific and doesn't purport to be. Typology operates exactly the same way.

    This is different from astrology because astrology claims a testable causal connection between birth date/time/place and behavioral patterns. You could actually set up a test to determine empirically whether or not any of these connections between birth place/time/date exist; you could not do this with typology because it's just a collection of arbitrary labels that claims no real testable or observable correlation between anything.

    Do you see how these are different now?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I don't see the point in going round in circles with you its seriously dull, and just roaring that you think it's all rubbish just makes you seem uneducated. My original point was that astrology isn't about a month or even a day, it's abotu a specific moment in time and space... that is totally uneque.
    I'll resist the urge to insult you, since Jennifer is evidently monitoring this thread for rudeness--suffice it to say, I'm not sure you have the grounds to be telling others they sound ignorant here.

    So in astrology, your behavioral patterns are completely unique to you because your birth occurred at a totally unique point in space and time? Therefore...no one else in the world will ever have the same astrological profile as you. So how do you actually draw any conclusions about behavioral similarities between people, if no two people ever have the same astrological data?


    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    --Astrology claims to have causal powers. It claims that a time and space positioning of planets has a causal and metaphysical effect on humans. Its not just a self response inventory.
    Bingo. Very well said. 20 bucks says Tinkerbell will refuse to acknowledge this, yet again.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #59
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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  10. #60
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Ok to share a personal example, I have an astral twin born 2 minutes after me, in Gautamal... I know his girlfriend online because we did a class together.

    Ok we had similar types of upbrining (our MBTIs don't match, although I beleive he is a rationalist not the same type).

    OK with astrology when the genders are reversed it works slightly differently.

    His mum died within weeks of my dad dieing (not to the day but within the same qurter)
    His dad died within weeks even closer to my mum (we are talking c.4 weeks)

    In the same period I was bugled 3 times and had all sorts of crime happening to and around me, he also had 2 buglaries, and had to change addess as I did in the UK.

    Now those are top line, and I've not explored in huge dpeth, but this is a guy I've chatted to once for 5 minutes, I've never met him, and he lives in a very different country to me... but major life events happened close enough for me to see parralles. From your perspective they are not to the day, but from my perspective the astorlogy at the time is similar enough in transit time to be good enough to draw parallels..

    As you can imagine there are plenty of ways we differ too, but big stuff seem to align
    And you don't think any of this might be due to...I don't know, random chance?

    If you can show this sort of similarity over any kind of significant sample of "astral twins", maybe the scientific community will start taking you seriously.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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