User Tag List

Results 1 to 8 of 8

  1. #1
    RDF
    Guest

    Default Bastardized version of PersonalityPage.com

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I'll write up something later (tomorrow or the next day) and post it here. I'll try to tie it in with ENFPs so that it won't represent a derailing of this ENFP thread.
    Okay, the project turned into something different. But here's what I came up with. I'm basically using the system at the "Personal Growth" section of PersonalityPage.com (link: Personal Growth ); that is I'm plagiarizing it and bastardizing it.

    Basically, I've attempted to strip down and oversimplify the system at PersonalityPage.com to the point that it's a nice symmetrical system, and then I've fleshed it out a bit to emphasize some points of my own. I'm trying to work up the info at PersonalityPage.com into a more condensed version that I can play around with.

    I wrote up the following notes mainly for my own use, so the material is going to be pretty condensed and sketchy. In some places it's fleshed out, and in some places it's just an outline. It could be fleshed out considerably more. But I thought I would post it in case anyone else is interested. (Forgive typos and all that; I didn't proofread it closely before posting it.)

    Please note that the following is from the "Personal Growth" section of PersonalityPage.com and deals specifically with the problem of individuals who exhibit too much reliance on their Dominant function and need to moderate or balance themselves by developing their Auxiliary function. I see this viewpoint as useful because most people can use a little more maturity and balance in their lives; also, a state of imbalance in functions is the often the best way to see the functions in isolation and learn about them.

    But if the reader feels that he or she has a good, mature, moderate Dominant/Auxiliary balance, then hopefully he or she won't be put off by these descriptions of unbalanced functions.

    Introduction

    PersonalityPage.com uses the system of MBTI functions or cognitive processes. If anyone isn't familiar with it, CognitiveProcesses.com breaks out the system in detail (link: Cracking the Personality Type Code) This message board also has some material on the same subject stickied in the MBTI, Enneagram, etc. Forum.

    The 8 MBTI functions or cognitive processes are subdivided into two groups depending on how they process information and other stimuli. To put it simplistically, the Thinking and Feeling functions (Ti, Te, Fi, and Fe) are grouped together as the "judging functions." They tend to be critically-oriented and they set boundaries, organize information, and define things. By contrast, the Intuition and Sensing functions (Ni, Ne, Si, and Se) are grouped together as the "perceiving functions." They tend to be boundaryless and uncritical, and they gather information for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations.

    For purposes of these notes, I see F and T as operating roughly the same. That is, F and T are both engaged in defining, developing, and testing tools and instruments for use in measuring and influencing the world. F and T use different raw materials (F uses morals and values, while T uses logic, analysis, and scientific systems), but the tools are chosen, defined, and wielded in much the same manner. That is, morals and values tend to be understood and applied in a fairly objective, universal, and homogenous manner in the outer world, but an F may make fairly idiosyncratic choices of specific values depending on his self-definition. (One F may be pro-capital punishment while another is anti-). Similarly, logic and analysis tend to be viewed as objective phenomena. But there are many different logic and analysis tools available (legal logic, philosophical logic, scientific analysis, statistical analysis, etc.) and the individual T may make fairly idiosyncratic choices of specific analytical tools depending on his self-definition. (One T may prefer statistical analysis over everything, while another may analyze everything using a century-old philosophical system.

    I also see N and S as operating roughly the same as each other: Both are involved in gathering data and associating or comparing. N tends to work more with abstract concepts and draw associations, whereas S tends to gather concrete facts and experiences and draw direct comparisons. But otherwise they operate roughly the same, much as F and T.

    [Sidenote:] On a purely theoretical basis, I would argue that F and N are augmentative, while T and S are reductive. IOW going back to the F/T comparison, T tends to dissect and deconstruct as part of the analytical process, whereas F tends to weigh things in the context of frameworks (moral systems, emotions, art, etc.) Similarly, S breaks things down for comparison purposes, while N associates far-flung things and tries to weave them together.

    Taking this idea to the extreme, the xSTx athlete would then be the most reductive type, practicing and analyzing a single movement (say a curve ball pitch) until he has it down perfectly and can deliver it on demand. The xNFx philosopher is the most augmentative, studying a raindrop and claiming to see in it an analog for the universe.[/Sidenote]


    But again, for purposes of these notes, the main point is that F and T are considered to operate roughly the same as each other in their role as critically-oriented judging functions, and N and S are considered to operate roughly the same as each other in their role as data-collecting and -comparing perceiving functions.
    ***********

    The Dominant function

    One's interactions with the world are going to be processed primarily through one's Dominant function. If F and T are considered to operate the same and N and S are considered to operate the same, and if we look solely at dominant functions, it's possible to postulate four separate groups of personality types operating roughly the same within the group:

    Group 1: Dominant Ti/Fi (ISTP, ISFP, INFP, and INTP), where the judging function (T/F) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). These are the four most private and solipsist personality types. The judging function (Ti and Fi) organizes, defines, and sets boundaries. That occurs inwardly since the judging function is introverted; so the outward world tends to be pushed aside and attention is focused on processing information for the purpose of selecting and honing personal tools for judgment and measurement. Taken to the extreme, Group 1 can find itself forever fine-tuning its inner world and pushing away the outer world as a mere distraction.

    Group 2: Dominant Se/Ne (ESTP, ESFP, ENFP, and ENTP), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). These are the four most public and reactive personality types. The perceiving function (Se and Ne) is boundaryless and undiscriminating, and it gathers information at random for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations. That occurs outwardly since the perceiving function is extraverted; attention is focused on collecting stimuli and making comparisons or weaving them into patterns on the run; if the attention is bombarded with external stimuli, the inner world may be overwhelmed and disregarded. Taken to the extreme, Group 2 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in the outer world and never noticing or using its internal judging functions to develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating.

    Taking Groups 1 and 2 together, we have the 8 personality types that make up the MBTI's "Perceivers" (with a capital P). They are analogs for each other. Analyzed in terms of their combination of Dominant and Auxiliary functions, both groups have an extraverted perceiving function (Se/Ne) and an introverted judging function (Ti/Fi). If their Dominant and Auxiliary were in perfect balance, then the ISTP from Group 1 would operate the same as the ESTP from Group 2, the ISFP from Group 1 would operate the same as the ESFP from Group 2, and so on. But if all the individuals fall into the trap of relying solely on their Dominant and ignoring their Auxiliary, then they act as described above, IOW pretty much the opposite of each other.

    Continuing on:

    Group 3: Dominant Si/Ni (ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTJ), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). These four introverts interact with the world to discover or intuit systems. The perceiving function (Ni and Si) is boundaryless and undiscriminating, and it churns through information at random for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations. That occurs inwardly since the perceiving function is introverted; so the outward world tends to be pushed aside and attention is focused on processing information for storage and pattern-building. Taken to the extreme, Group 3 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in its inner reservoir and never notice or use its external judging functions to help develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating within the internal reservoir.

    Group 4: Dominant Te/Fe (ESTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, and ENTJ), where the perceiving function (T/F) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). These four introverts interact with the world to direct and influence. The judging function (Te and Fe) organizes, defines, and sets boundaries. That occurs outwardly since the judging function is extraverted; so the inward world tends to be pushed aside and attention is focused on processing information for the purpose of selecting and honing personal tools for influencing the world with precision and effectiveness. Taken to the extreme, Group 4 can find itself forever fine-tuning its external administrative and directive tools and neglect or not understand internal motivations (its own, or those of the people it is trying to direct).

    Taking Groups 3 and 4 together, we have the 8 personality types that make up the MBTI's "Judgers" (with a capital J). They are analogs for each other. Analyzed in terms of their combination of Dominant and Auxiliary functions, both groups have an introverted perceiving function (Si/Ni) and an extraverted judging function (Te/Fe). If their Dominant and Auxiliary were in perfect balance, then the ISTJ from Group 3 would operate the same as the ESTJ from Group 4, and so on. But if all the individuals fall into the trap of relying solely on their Dominant and ignoring their Auxiliary, then they act as described above, IOW pretty much the opposite of each other.

    **************

    Dominant to the extreme

    When individuals rely only on their Dominant function and neglect to develop their Auxiliary function, you get the situation described in the "Taken to the extreme..." passages for each group above. PersonalityPage.com describes how this works itself out for each personality type. I'll just add a few notes of my own.

    Group 1: Dominant Ti/Fi (ISTP, ISFP, INFP, and INTP), where the judging function (T/F) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 1 can find itself forever fine-tuning its inner world and pushing away the outer world as a mere distraction.

    Being an introverted judging function in the Dominant position, Ti and Fi are always honing, testing, and vetting their tools. It's also a very introverted and inward-facing process, to the point where the Dominant Fi/Ti personality types may have little regard for the outside world. Focused intently on their introverted judging function, Dominant Fi/Ti personality types may end up ignoring and dismissing the external world. They can end up trapped inside their own head, oblivious to the world around them, and poor at personal interactions. The external world may seem insubstantial to them; it may seem a hindrance if it distracts them from their introverted judging work; or it may seem threatening and painful.

    PersonalityPage.com spells out how this works out in the real world for each of the four Group 1 personality types. Generally these include: Getting stuck in a rut, inappropriate behavior, being out of touch, using experiences from the external world solely to support one's own prejudices, hypersensitivity to criticism, etc.

    The relentless internal judging function (Fi and Ti) can pare down the internal world to the point that it is bare and stagnant. Sometimes the Dominant Fi/Ti personality types get so out of touch with the outside world that their judging functions become skewed and distorted. The Dominant Fi/Ti personality types spend a lot of time honing their tools; at some point ideally they need to re-establish contact with the outside world and test their tools against the real world in order to know for sure how effective they really are. The external world provides needed reality checks.

    Group 2: Dominant Se/Ne (ESTP, ESFP, ENFP, and ENTP), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 2 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in the outer world and never noticing or using its internal judging functions to develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating.

    Being an extraverted perceiving function in the Dominant position, Se and Ne are boundaryless and focused on gathering experience and stimuli. Without a critical judging function to set limits, define guidelines, and define oneself and one's goals, dominant Se/Ne can turn into sensation-seeking behavior, mere reaction to the promptings and initiative of others, opportunism, and eventually stress from overstimulation.

    Previously in the "ENFP Paradox" thread I described an extreme case of extreme ENFP behavior:

    I have one female ENFP acquaintance who is constantly stressed-out, strung-out, exhausted, mostly a shut-in, subject to endless nervous complaints, can't stay focused on anything for more than a few minutes, gets freaked out by any change or unexpected factor in her day (hot weather, more traffic on the road than expected, bad news on the radio even when it doesn't affect her), can't go to a restaurant without changing tables five or six times because this one is too bright, that one is too dark, the other one is too loud, etc.

    Obviously this is extreme behavior. And it seems to be sympathy-seeking behavior in that everyone is expected to put up with her whims and mood swings and changes in plans. But I blame it mostly on her undisciplined Ne. Her extraverted Intuition latches onto any and all stimuli coming at her and tries to weaves patterns of meaning. And her Ne is "undisciplined" in that it doesn't distinguish between small meaningless stimuli and more important meaningful communications or signs. For example if she is having a conversation with someone, she can get distracted and upset by a fly buzzing in the room or window curtains rustling; her hypersensitive Ne registers the minor stimuli of the fly or the curtain and it analyzes, sorts, and parses them to see if they connect in any way with the major stimuli of the conversation.

    As a result, my acquaintance is constantly bombarded with nervous/mental stimuli and is permanently overexcited, exhausted, and strung out. The solution to her problem is provided at the Personalitypage.com website that I linked earlier. She needs to develop her Fi and use it as a filtering device. She could learn to recognize some stimuli as important and other stimuli as inconsequential and ignorable, thereby reducing the activity of her Intuition and the burden on her nervous system.
    That is just one model for out-of-control Ne. Other types in Group 2 (and even other ENFPs) may exhibit completely different problems. PersonalityPage.com spells out how this works out in the real world for each of the four Group 2 personality types. Generally these include: Focusing on one's own enjoyment and obliviousness to the consequences or harm caused to others, simplistic approaches and rashness, lack of judgment, being easily distracted from goals and lack of commitment, opportunism/manipulation, etc.

    Group 3: Dominant Si/Ni (ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTJ), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 3 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in its inner reservoir and never notice or use its external judging functions to help develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating within the internal reservoir.

    Being an introverted perceiving function in the Dominant position, Si and Ni are boundaryless and focused on processing experience and stimuli. Without a critical judging function to set limits, define guidelines, and define oneself and one's goals, dominant Si/Ni chews away at large quantities of random data, builds elaborate systems to incorporate the data, and disregards the outer world as unimportant or even a threat to the system. It requires much work to incorporate new data in the existing elaborate internal system, which can make the outside world (as a source of new data) seem stressful and threatening.

    Previously in the "ENFP Paradox" thread I described a case of extreme INTJ behavior:

    INTJs can use introverted intuition in a positive manner to cast wide analytical nets and efficiently process disparate ideas simultaneously; but the process of churning their way through their ever-expanding internal reservoir of ideas can occupy more and more of their attention and isolate them from the world around them.
    PersonalityPage.com spells out how this works out in the real world for each of the four Group 3 personality types. Generally these include: Stress and avoidance reactions to the outside world, certainty about "correct" or "right" ways to do things, rigidity and inflexibility, strong negative judgments about others who do things differently, etc.

    Group 4: Dominant Te/Fe (ESTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, and ENTJ), where the perceiving function (T/F) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 4 can find itself forever fine-tuning its external administrative and directive tools and neglect or not understand internal motivations (its own or those of the people it is trying to direct).

    Being an extraverted judging function in the Dominant position, Te and Fe select and hone personal tools for influencing the world with precision and effectiveness. This can be a relentless process to the point where "others" are viewed simply as a collection of pressure points and hot buttons and the Group 4 individual simply becomes a button-pusher. IOW, the process of administering and directing becomes automated and canned, the transaction makes both parties feel trapped and suffocated, and stimuli from the inward world (emotions, desires, personality) are ignored as unimportant or threatening because they derail the administrative/directive process.

    PersonalityPage.com spells out how this works out in the real world for each of the four Group 4 personality types. Generally these include: Bullying, dismissiveness, controlling behavior, insistence on pragmatism and results, judging by appearances, ignorance of underlying needs and values, getting caught in a rut of endlessly mentoring others, etc.

    (to be continued...)

  2. #2
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    (...part 2, continued from above)

    ***********

    Application of the Auxiliary to moderate an extreme Dominant

    Assuming (for purposes of illustration) that individuals from each group rely only on their Dominant function and have neglected to develop their Auxiliary function, then it's worth demonstrating how an injection of the Auxiliary serves as a balancing factor. Again, PersonalityPage.com describes how this works itself out for each personality type. I'll just add a few notes of my own.

    Group 1: Dominant Ti/Fi (ISTP, ISFP, INFP, and INTP), where the judging function (T/F) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 1 can find itself forever fine-tuning its inner world and pushing away the outer world as a mere distraction.

    For Dominant Ti/Fi personality types the Auxiliary function is Se/Ne (that is, Se for ISTPs and ISFPs and Ne for INTPS and INFPs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the outside world. Se and Ne are perceiving functions. They are boundaryless, and they gather new information for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no bridge to the outside world, then the relentless internal critical judging function (Ti/Fi) can pare down the internal world to the point that it is bare and stagnant. Strengthening the Auxiliary function will build a bridge to the outside, and the extraverted perceiving function (Se/Ne) will collect and transport in new impressions and stimuli to renew the internal world. Reconnecting with the external world will also provide reality checks for the internal judging function (Ti/Fi); that is, sometimes the Dominant Ti/Fi personality types get so out of touch with the outside world that their judging functions become skewed and distorted. The Dominant Ti/Fi personality types spend a lot of time honing their tools, and they need to test their tools against the real world in order to know for sure how effective they really are.

    Personalitypage.com provides detailed instructions on how to strengthen one's Auxiliary function. Personalitypage.com tends to imply a two-step process:

    1) First, apply the Auxiliary function directly to the Dominant process. In the case of Group 1 individuals, this means doing data collection to feed the introverted Dominant: Study people's hair, skin, makeup, clothes, shoes, expressions, etc. Or in the case of ISTPs: Seek out new experiences, get out one's rut, and question why things work a certain way. Since Se/Ne is boundaryless, the specific nature of the data or experience is almost unimportant. The main idea is to flush details from the outside world into the Ti/Fi to provide reality checks and repopulate a bare or stagnant inner world. It will also help make the outer world real and tangible and interesting to an individual who is accustomed to pushing away the outer world as a mere distraction.

    2) Secondarily, the individual learns to distinguish among people and stimuli, develops some competence at reacting to them in a differentiated manner, and eventually starts to use Se/Ne directly with the real world and live in the real world (as opposed to filtering it through Ti/Fi first, as in the first step.)

    Group 2: Dominant Se/Ne (ESTP, ESFP, ENFP, and ENTP), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 2 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in the outer world and never noticing or using its internal judging functions to develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating.

    For Dominant Se/Ne personality types the Auxiliary function is Ti/Fi (that is, Ti for ESTPs and ENTPs and Fi for ESFPs and ENFPs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the internal world. Ti and Fi are judging functions. They set boundaries, organize information, and define things.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no judging function to set limits, define guidelines, and define oneself and one's goals, dominant Se/Ne can turn into mere reaction to the promptings and initiative of others. Strengthening the Auxiliary function will build a bridge to the inside, and the introverted judging function (Ti/Fi) will apply rules for discriminating stimuli and ideas in the outside world and define personal guidelines for interacting with the world.

    As with the other functions, Personalitypage.com tends to imply a two-step process:

    1) First, apply the Auxiliary function directly to the Dominant process. In the case of Group 2 individuals, this means looking at external stimuli or incoming ideas and applying criteria for differentiating them. For example: Does that really pertain to me? Is it important to me? Does it affect me? Is it something I want to react to, or shall I ignore it? Since Ti/Fi is a judging function, it will serve as a filter and prompt the individual to tune out some stimuli and ideas. The criteria may be arbitrary at first; the exercise is simply good for learning to discriminate among stimuli, which will reduce the burden on the individual's attention and ultimately the individual's stress level.

    2) Secondarily, with some freed-up attention, the individual will eventually want to consider the criteria themselves and what they say about the individual, in terms of defining oneself and one's goals. That, in turn, may open up a hidden world of emotions, values, personal guidelines, etc. IOW, to choose filters and criteria for discrimination, one needs to explore oneself and ask why some things are valuable and some things are not.

    I spelled out how I thought this process might work in an overstressed ENFP in the "inferior functions" thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...html#post68873

    Group 3: Dominant Si/Ni (ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTJ), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 3 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in its inner reservoir and never notice or use its external judging functions to help develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating within the internal reservoir.

    For Dominant Si/Ni personality types the Auxiliary function is Te/Fe (that is, Te for ISTJs and INTJs and Fe for ISFJs and INFJs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the external world. Te and Fe are judging functions. They set boundaries, organize information, and define things.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no a judging function to set limits, define guidelines, and define oneself and one's goals, dominant Si/Ni can turn into a process of endless storing, churning, and mapping huge amounts of information. Strengthening the Auxiliary function will build a bridge to the outside, and the extraverted critical judging function (Te/Fe) will apply common-sense rules for discriminating stimuli and ideas in the inner world and define guidelines for useful activity versus mere churning and storage.

    As with the other functions, Personalitypage.com tends to imply a two-step process. However, given that Group 3 is comprised of the MBTI's "Judgers" (with a capital J), things get switched around a bit. Group 3 individuals who need to strengthen up their Auxiliary in order to moderate their Dominant are in the position of having to go out into the external world in a data-collection mode to learn critical judging tools for moderating their internal processes. And they have to carry out that process using a judging Auxiliary!

    I think this point illustrates the role of the Auxiliary as a "bridge" for each group, particularly at the first stage of the two-step process when the Auxiliary serves more as a moderator for the Dominant function rather than an independent function by itself. Information can run either way on a bridge, and at the first stage we routinely see extraverted functions used to supply the introverted Dominant with fodder, or introverted functions used as a filter for extraverted Dominant functions.

    1) Anyway, according to Personalitypage.com, Group 3 individuals have to use their Te/Fe (a judging function) to go out into the world in a data collection role and study how other people apply their judging facilities. IOW, Group 3 individuals have to study the people around them to learn how the outside world establishes and applies values and analytical tools.

    2) Group 3 individuals will then bring these outward value systems and analytical tools inside to moderate their boundaryless perceiving method of processing information.

    Again, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to use a critical judging function as a boundaryless data-collection tool, and then apply the collected data critically inwardly. But ultimately there is a common thread running through all these processes of applying the Auxiliary to moderate an extreme Dominant: An extreme Dominant function tends to detach from the outer world and run out of control to the point where the individual is functioning inefficiently. To correct this problem, the Auxiliary reconnects the individual to the outer world by imposing outer-world values on the Dominant. Thus, if Group 3 individuals have lost touch with the way other people sort and process information, then that's what they have to learn from the outer world. And they have to use their Auxiliary for that process.

    Basically Group 3 individuals have to reconnect uncritically with the people around them (suspend any judging process) and deliberately and consciously study how to input and apply the rules of common sense, much as Group 1 individuals have to reconnect with the world around them and deliberately and consciously study how to input and parse stimuli. Group 3 individuals need to share ideas with others, watch how the others value and process those ideas, and then adopt those valuing and processing methods for their own use. They need to learn the common-sense, practical, critical ways that others use to process and order ideas.

    Group 4: Dominant Te/Fe (ESTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, and ENTJ), where the critical judging function (T/F) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 4 can find itself forever fine-tuning its external administrative and directive tools and neglect or not understand internal motivations (its own or those of the people it is trying to direct).

    For Dominant Te/Fe personality types the Auxiliary function is Si/Ni (that is, Si for ESTJs and ESFJs and Ni for ENFJs and ENTJs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the internal world. Si and Ni are perceiving functions. They are boundaryless, and they gather new information for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no bridge to the inner world, then the external critical judging function (Te/Fe) can pare down the external world to the point that interaction is a mere process of pushing buttons. "Others" are viewed as chess pieces to be moved around for their own good, and "oneself" can fall into a suffocating rut of playing out the same limited roles in response to the world around them.

    As in the case of Group 3, there is a bit of a conundrum when it comes to Group 4 developing its Auxiliary and using it to moderate and balance its Dominant. Again, this is a problem with the MBTI's "Judgers" (with a capital J) and the direction in which their judging and perceiving functions are pointed. In the case of Group 4, their Dominant critical judging function (Te/Fe) is applied outwardly and has defined neat, concise administrative roles for everyone. Their Dominant function is geared toward honing their tools and paring away anything unnecessary, and internal motivations tend to get discarded early along, being deemed too subtle and unreliable for use as administrative/directive tools. Group 4 individuals with a strong Dominant function are probably blind to internal motivations, especially their own. Hence, they're in an awkward position trying to use introverted data-collection tools on something that is largely invisible to them.

    PersonalityPage.com takes the same approach for Group 4 individuals as for Group 3 individuals:

    An extreme Dominant function tends to detach from the outer world and run out of control to the point where the individual is functioning inefficiently. To correct this problem, the Auxiliary needs to reconnect the individual to the outer world by imposing outer-world values on the Dominant. Thus, if Group 4 individuals have lost touch with the way people use their internal data-collection functions to generate personal world views, then that's what they have to learn from the outer world. And they have to use their Auxiliary for that process.

    Basically Group 3 individuals have to suspend their external judgments, reconnect uncritically with the people around them, and deliberately and consciously study how people use their own internal signals to form external values and judgments.

    So step 1 would be listen when people express an unexpected or "wrong" value or analysis, and ask how they reached that judgment. Having studied the internal processes of others, Step 2 would be to apply those same processes to oneself and find those same internal processes within and use them as introverted data-collection processes.

    Basically Group 4 individuals have to suspend their judgments of people's "roles" in the world, and deliberately and consciously study how to introspect--how to use their data-collection and -comparison functions for mining their internal world--much as Group 2 individuals have to filter out the stimuli coming at them from the world, reach inside, and consciously create an internal self-definition that will serve as a guide.

    ****************

    Use of other functions to moderate or develop the Dominant

    The Dominant function seems to benefit most from development of Auxiliary function. The Auxiliary complements the Dominant. For example, in the case of Group 1, the Auxiliary provides the introverted Dominant with a complementary extraverted function to serve as a bridge to the outside world; and the perceiving Auxiliary gathers new data and stimuli that will both feed and test (via reality checks) the judging Dominant function.

    Non-Auxiliary functions (such as the Tertiary, Inferior, and Shadow functions) can be developed as well. But the Auxiliary function has both benefits of being closest at hand, most accessible, and directly complementary to the Dominant, so it would be a natural choice for addressing quality-of-life issues due to too much reliance on the Dominant function.

    I have seen some people advocate developing the Inferior function as a way to balance the Dominant. Using INFPs for an example, Dominant Fi would be complemented with Te. IOW, under this arrangement, Introversion would be moderated by E, and F would be moderated by T. Both of those seem good things. But Fi and Te are both judging functions, and therefore development of Te wouldn't "inform" Fi in the sense of providing input to Fi or calling for any changes in how Fi works. That might seem good in that the two functions would work comfortably together and not interfere with each other; but development of Te wouldn't promote any corresponding development of Fi.

    IOW, developing better tools for expressing one's inner world (Te) doesn't change how one uses one's inner world (Fi). I've seen INFPs who have developed their Te nicely but still keep the world at bay when it comes to how they form their internal values. Similarly, I've seen INTPs who are good at dealing with the feelings of others and even exploring their own feelings (Fe), but they still thrust away any external input into their personal logical judgments on the world (Ti).

    Change and growth occur when a Dominant judging function is "informed" by a perceiving function, or when a Dominant perceiving function is "informed" by a judging function. That doesn't happen when the Inferior is developed.

    The Tertiary function would complement the Dominant function, but the Dominant and Tertiary tend to be matched in terms of introversion or extraversion. IOW, the Tertiary wouldn't tend to cross the barrier between outside and inside and serve as a bridge for the Dominant.

    Without delving into the Shadow functions (which are problematic because of their remoteness and their tendency to be hijacked by the non-Shadow functions), only the Auxiliary has the ability to "inform" the Dominant function in the sense of both providing it new input and serving as a bridge.

    I would also add that one has to deliberately and consciously use the Auxiliary in a way that "informs" the Dominant. Without deliberate and conscious application in this manner, the Auxiliary can be misapplied; it can be put in service to the Dominant in such a way that it merely serves as one more barrier to development--one more way for the Dominant to fend off the world and avoid development.

    I won't go into what this misapplication of the Auxiliary involves. PersonalityPage.com distinguishes between proper and improper use of the Auxiliary for each personality type. But this idea ties into the concept of the Auxiliary as a bridge and its different uses at the two stages of development of the Dominant. For example, we saw how Group 3 had to use its judging Auxiliary in a data-collection capacity at stage 1 of personal development. The Auxiliary is quite malleable, so for development purposes there has to be a definite, deliberate effort to use the Auxiliary as a bridge to the world. Inefficiency, immaturity, and even illness result when we diverge too far from the world around us. A good Auxiliary bridge to the world will address those problems.
    Last edited by RDF; 11-11-2007 at 02:47 AM.

  3. #3
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Default

    ohmahgoodness this looks awesome. i am tired so i will read this tomorrow
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #4
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    ohmahgoodness this looks awesome. i am tired so i will read this tomorrow
    Good luck!

    FWIW, now that I'm looking at my essay with fresh eyes, here is some additional background on it:

    Basically in my essay (above) I merely took the material at the "Personal Growth" section of PersonalityPage.com and boiled it down to the point where I could extract the underlying principles and state them as a system. IOW, there's nothing original in my essay. It has all been said previously at PersonalityPage.com.

    Furthermore, the principles themselves are rather simple and trite. Assuming one knows how cognitive processes work, then there is nothing particularly deep or controversial about how the cognitive processes are used at PersonalityPage.com.

    Still, I think there's some use in boiling down the material at PersonalityPage.com and extracting the principles:

    1) Without the principles explicitly stated, at first glance the material at PersonalityPage.com just looks like a hodgepodge of good-natured friendly advice. (The presentation at that website isn't very scientific or clinical in appearance.) OTOH once the principles are extracted and stated, then one can see more clearly the approach they're taking at PersonalityPage.com, and as a result the material there seems more scientifically-based or clinical in nature and therefore more worthy of attention. (IMO, of course.)

    2) The subject of cognitive processes is routinely discussed and bandied about here at MBTI-Central, but the discussion all occurs in a relative vacuum. The descriptions of the individual functions are foggy at best, and I haven't really seen anyone on the message board illustrate how the functions work as a comprehensive system or come up with rules for how the individual functions interact. (I'm sure there are books or articles that provide more background on cognitive processes, but AFAIK that additional material hasn't been brought to this message board.) PersonalityPage.com, on the other hand, represents a system based on cognitive processes that's easily accessible on the Internet. Therefore, extracting and stating the underlying principles (as I attempted in my essay above) provides an opportunity to see cognitive processes working and interacting within a structured, comprehensive system. One can then extrapolate some rules for the interaction of the cognitive functions, such as the rule that only the Auxiliary can directly promote development of the Dominant (see the last section of my essay).

    Anyway, those are the main two reasons I wrote my essay.

    Again, the actual content of my essay is rather trite and unsurprising; if one reads around at PersonalityPage.com, it doesn't take the reader long to notice a number of parallels in the material and intuit how they're using the cognitive processes. Still, an explicit statement of that system might be useful for the two reasons I mentioned above, at a minimum.

  5. #5
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Default

    okay. i've searched for constructive criticism/searched for specific stuff to comment on...

    i'm going to be a terrible reviewer and just say "i read it; i liked it; props."
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    (...part 2, continued from above)

    ***********

    Application of the Auxiliary to moderate an extreme Dominant

    Assuming (for purposes of illustration) that individuals from each group rely only on their Dominant function and have neglected to develop their Auxiliary function, then it's worth demonstrating how an injection of the Auxiliary serves as a balancing factor. Again, PersonalityPage.com describes how this works itself out for each personality type. I'll just add a few notes of my own.

    Group 1: Dominant Ti/Fi (ISTP, ISFP, INFP, and INTP), where the judging function (T/F) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 1 can find itself forever fine-tuning its inner world and pushing away the outer world as a mere distraction.

    For Dominant Ti/Fi personality types the Auxiliary function is Se/Ne (that is, Se for ISTPs and ISFPs and Ne for INTPS and INFPs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the outside world. Se and Ne are perceiving functions. They are boundaryless, and they gather new information for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no bridge to the outside world, then the relentless internal critical judging function (Ti/Fi) can pare down the internal world to the point that it is bare and stagnant. Strengthening the Auxiliary function will build a bridge to the outside, and the extraverted perceiving function (Se/Ne) will collect and transport in new impressions and stimuli to renew the internal world. Reconnecting with the external world will also provide reality checks for the internal judging function (Ti/Fi); that is, sometimes the Dominant Ti/Fi personality types get so out of touch with the outside world that their judging functions become skewed and distorted. The Dominant Ti/Fi personality types spend a lot of time honing their tools, and they need to test their tools against the real world in order to know for sure how effective they really are.

    Personalitypage.com provides detailed instructions on how to strengthen one's Auxiliary function. Personalitypage.com tends to imply a two-step process:

    1) First, apply the Auxiliary function directly to the Dominant process. In the case of Group 1 individuals, this means doing data collection to feed the introverted Dominant: Study people's hair, skin, makeup, clothes, shoes, expressions, etc. Or in the case of ISTPs: Seek out new experiences, get out one's rut, and question why things work a certain way. Since Se/Ne is boundaryless, the specific nature of the data or experience is almost unimportant. The main idea is to flush details from the outside world into the Ti/Fi to provide reality checks and repopulate a bare or stagnant inner world. It will also help make the outer world real and tangible and interesting to an individual who is accustomed to pushing away the outer world as a mere distraction.

    2) Secondarily, the individual learns to distinguish among people and stimuli, develops some competence at reacting to them in a differentiated manner, and eventually starts to use Se/Ne directly with the real world and live in the real world (as opposed to filtering it through Ti/Fi first, as in the first step.)

    Group 2: Dominant Se/Ne (ESTP, ESFP, ENFP, and ENTP), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 2 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in the outer world and never noticing or using its internal judging functions to develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating.

    For Dominant Se/Ne personality types the Auxiliary function is Ti/Fi (that is, Ti for ESTPs and ENTPs and Fi for ESFPs and ENFPs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the internal world. Ti and Fi are judging functions. They set boundaries, organize information, and define things.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no judging function to set limits, define guidelines, and define oneself and one's goals, dominant Se/Ne can turn into mere reaction to the promptings and initiative of others. Strengthening the Auxiliary function will build a bridge to the inside, and the introverted judging function (Ti/Fi) will apply rules for discriminating stimuli and ideas in the outside world and define personal guidelines for interacting with the world.

    As with the other functions, Personalitypage.com tends to imply a two-step process:

    1) First, apply the Auxiliary function directly to the Dominant process. In the case of Group 2 individuals, this means looking at external stimuli or incoming ideas and applying criteria for differentiating them. For example: Does that really pertain to me? Is it important to me? Does it affect me? Is it something I want to react to, or shall I ignore it? Since Ti/Fi is a judging function, it will serve as a filter and prompt the individual to tune out some stimuli and ideas. The criteria may be arbitrary at first; the exercise is simply good for learning to discriminate among stimuli, which will reduce the burden on the individual's attention and ultimately the individual's stress level.

    2) Secondarily, with some freed-up attention, the individual will eventually want to consider the criteria themselves and what they say about the individual, in terms of defining oneself and one's goals. That, in turn, may open up a hidden world of emotions, values, personal guidelines, etc. IOW, to choose filters and criteria for discrimination, one needs to explore oneself and ask why some things are valuable and some things are not.

    I spelled out how I thought this process might work in an overstressed ENFP in the "inferior functions" thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...html#post68873

    Group 3: Dominant Si/Ni (ISTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTJ), where the perceiving function (S/N) is dominant and is applied inwardly (introverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 3 can find itself forever wallowing indiscriminately in its inner reservoir and never notice or use its external judging functions to help develop personal guidelines for sorting and discriminating within the internal reservoir.

    For Dominant Si/Ni personality types the Auxiliary function is Te/Fe (that is, Te for ISTJs and INTJs and Fe for ISFJs and INFJs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the external world. Te and Fe are judging functions. They set boundaries, organize information, and define things.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no a judging function to set limits, define guidelines, and define oneself and one's goals, dominant Si/Ni can turn into a process of endless storing, churning, and mapping huge amounts of information. Strengthening the Auxiliary function will build a bridge to the outside, and the extraverted critical judging function (Te/Fe) will apply common-sense rules for discriminating stimuli and ideas in the inner world and define guidelines for useful activity versus mere churning and storage.

    As with the other functions, Personalitypage.com tends to imply a two-step process. However, given that Group 3 is comprised of the MBTI's "Judgers" (with a capital J), things get switched around a bit. Group 3 individuals who need to strengthen up their Auxiliary in order to moderate their Dominant are in the position of having to go out into the external world in a data-collection mode to learn critical judging tools for moderating their internal processes. And they have to carry out that process using a judging Auxiliary!

    I think this point illustrates the role of the Auxiliary as a "bridge" for each group, particularly at the first stage of the two-step process when the Auxiliary serves more as a moderator for the Dominant function rather than an independent function by itself. Information can run either way on a bridge, and at the first stage we routinely see extraverted functions used to supply the introverted Dominant with fodder, or introverted functions used as a filter for extraverted Dominant functions.

    1) Anyway, according to Personalitypage.com, Group 3 individuals have to use their Te/Fe (a judging function) to go out into the world in a data collection role and study how other people apply their judging facilities. IOW, Group 3 individuals have to study the people around them to learn how the outside world establishes and applies values and analytical tools.

    2) Group 3 individuals will then bring these outward value systems and analytical tools inside to moderate their boundaryless perceiving method of processing information.

    Again, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to use a critical judging function as a boundaryless data-collection tool, and then apply the collected data critically inwardly. But ultimately there is a common thread running through all these processes of applying the Auxiliary to moderate an extreme Dominant: An extreme Dominant function tends to detach from the outer world and run out of control to the point where the individual is functioning inefficiently. To correct this problem, the Auxiliary reconnects the individual to the outer world by imposing outer-world values on the Dominant. Thus, if Group 3 individuals have lost touch with the way other people sort and process information, then that's what they have to learn from the outer world. And they have to use their Auxiliary for that process.

    Basically Group 3 individuals have to reconnect uncritically with the people around them (suspend any judging process) and deliberately and consciously study how to input and apply the rules of common sense, much as Group 1 individuals have to reconnect with the world around them and deliberately and consciously study how to input and parse stimuli. Group 3 individuals need to share ideas with others, watch how the others value and process those ideas, and then adopt those valuing and processing methods for their own use. They need to learn the common-sense, practical, critical ways that others use to process and order ideas.

    Group 4: Dominant Te/Fe (ESTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, and ENTJ), where the critical judging function (T/F) is dominant and is applied outwardly (extraverted). Taken to the extreme, Group 4 can find itself forever fine-tuning its external administrative and directive tools and neglect or not understand internal motivations (its own or those of the people it is trying to direct).

    For Dominant Te/Fe personality types the Auxiliary function is Si/Ni (that is, Si for ESTJs and ESFJs and Ni for ENFJs and ENTJs). A strong Auxiliary function will serve as a bridge to the internal world. Si and Ni are perceiving functions. They are boundaryless, and they gather new information for purposes of comparing and/or setting up associations.

    If the Auxiliary function is weak and there is no bridge to the inner world, then the external critical judging function (Te/Fe) can pare down the external world to the point that interaction is a mere process of pushing buttons. "Others" are viewed as chess pieces to be moved around for their own good, and "oneself" can fall into a suffocating rut of playing out the same limited roles in response to the world around them.

    As in the case of Group 3, there is a bit of a conundrum when it comes to Group 4 developing its Auxiliary and using it to moderate and balance its Dominant. Again, this is a problem with the MBTI's "Judgers" (with a capital J) and the direction in which their judging and perceiving functions are pointed. In the case of Group 4, their Dominant critical judging function (Te/Fe) is applied outwardly and has defined neat, concise administrative roles for everyone. Their Dominant function is geared toward honing their tools and paring away anything unnecessary, and internal motivations tend to get discarded early along, being deemed too subtle and unreliable for use as administrative/directive tools. Group 4 individuals with a strong Dominant function are probably blind to internal motivations, especially their own. Hence, they're in an awkward position trying to use introverted data-collection tools on something that is largely invisible to them.

    PersonalityPage.com takes the same approach for Group 4 individuals as for Group 3 individuals:

    An extreme Dominant function tends to detach from the outer world and run out of control to the point where the individual is functioning inefficiently. To correct this problem, the Auxiliary needs to reconnect the individual to the outer world by imposing outer-world values on the Dominant. Thus, if Group 4 individuals have lost touch with the way people use their internal data-collection functions to generate personal world views, then that's what they have to learn from the outer world. And they have to use their Auxiliary for that process.

    Basically Group 3 individuals have to suspend their external judgments, reconnect uncritically with the people around them, and deliberately and consciously study how people use their own internal signals to form external values and judgments.

    So step 1 would be listen when people express an unexpected or "wrong" value or analysis, and ask how they reached that judgment. Having studied the internal processes of others, Step 2 would be to apply those same processes to oneself and find those same internal processes within and use them as introverted data-collection processes.

    Basically Group 4 individuals have to suspend their judgments of people's "roles" in the world, and deliberately and consciously study how to introspect--how to use their data-collection and -comparison functions for mining their internal world--much as Group 2 individuals have to filter out the stimuli coming at them from the world, reach inside, and consciously create an internal self-definition that will serve as a guide.

    ****************

    Use of other functions to moderate or develop the Dominant

    The Dominant function seems to benefit most from development of Auxiliary function. The Auxiliary complements the Dominant. For example, in the case of Group 1, the Auxiliary provides the introverted Dominant with a complementary extraverted function to serve as a bridge to the outside world; and the perceiving Auxiliary gathers new data and stimuli that will both feed and test (via reality checks) the judging Dominant function.

    Non-Auxiliary functions (such as the Tertiary, Inferior, and Shadow functions) can be developed as well. But the Auxiliary function has both benefits of being closest at hand, most accessible, and directly complementary to the Dominant, so it would be a natural choice for addressing quality-of-life issues due to too much reliance on the Dominant function.

    I have seen some people advocate developing the Inferior function as a way to balance the Dominant. Using INFPs for an example, Dominant Fi would be complemented with Te. IOW, under this arrangement, Introversion would be moderated by E, and F would be moderated by T. Both of those seem good things. But Fi and Te are both judging functions, and therefore development of Te wouldn't "inform" Fi in the sense of providing input to Fi or calling for any changes in how Fi works. That might seem good in that the two functions would work comfortably together and not interfere with each other; but development of Te wouldn't promote any corresponding development of Fi.

    IOW, developing better tools for expressing one's inner world (Te) doesn't change how one uses one's inner world (Fi). I've seen INFPs who have developed their Te nicely but still keep the world at bay when it comes to how they form their internal values. Similarly, I've seen INTPs who are good at dealing with the feelings of others and even exploring their own feelings (Fe), but they still thrust away any external input into their personal logical judgments on the world (Ti).

    Change and growth occur when a Dominant judging function is "informed" by a perceiving function, or when a Dominant perceiving function is "informed" by a judging function. That doesn't happen when the Inferior is developed.

    The Tertiary function would complement the Dominant function, but the Dominant and Tertiary tend to be matched in terms of introversion or extraversion. IOW, the Tertiary wouldn't tend to cross the barrier between outside and inside and serve as a bridge for the Dominant.

    Without delving into the Shadow functions (which are problematic because of their remoteness and their tendency to be hijacked by the non-Shadow functions), only the Auxiliary has the ability to "inform" the Dominant function in the sense of both providing it new input and serving as a bridge.

    I would also add that one has to deliberately and consciously use the Auxiliary in a way that "informs" the Dominant. Without deliberate and conscious application in this manner, the Auxiliary can be misapplied; it can be put in service to the Dominant in such a way that it merely serves as one more barrier to development--one more way for the Dominant to fend off the world and avoid development.

    I won't go into what this misapplication of the Auxiliary involves. PersonalityPage.com distinguishes between proper and improper use of the Auxiliary for each personality type. But this idea ties into the concept of the Auxiliary as a bridge and its different uses at the two stages of development of the Dominant. For example, we saw how Group 3 had to use its judging Auxiliary in a data-collection capacity at stage 1 of personal development. The Auxiliary is quite malleable, so for development purposes there has to be a definite, deliberate effort to use the Auxiliary as a bridge to the world. Inefficiency, immaturity, and even illness result when we diverge too far from the world around us. A good Auxiliary bridge to the world will address those problems.
    so seeking out new experiences applies to ISTP but not ISFP or INTP

  7. #7

    Default

    Sorry to get all nitpicky just didn't like the I'm
    plication

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Change and growth occur when a Dominant judging function is "informed" by a perceiving function, or when a Dominant perceiving function is "informed" by a judging function. That doesn't happen when the Inferior is developed.

    The Tertiary function would complement the Dominant function, but the Dominant and Tertiary tend to be matched in terms of introversion or extraversion. IOW, the Tertiary wouldn't tend to cross the barrier between outside and inside and serve as a bridge for the Dominant.

    Without delving into the Shadow functions (which are problematic because of their remoteness and their tendency to be hijacked by the non-Shadow functions), only the Auxiliary has the ability to "inform" the Dominant function in the sense of both providing it new input and serving as a bridge.
    These are false.

    The development is about using the functions consciously, not to work for dom function, this other functions working for dom functions is what undeveloped functions do.

    Twrt works as a bridge between inferior and dom. Inferior is inferior because it goes against dom function(thus going against ego), so ego tries to repress the inferior. Tert on the other hand is able to take the message of inferior and "translate" it to non threatening form for ego, so that ego is aboe to see the value of inferior through the tert and back off from repressing the valuable contents of the inferior. Thus allowing the development of inferior. Naturally this realization of inferior through tert requires something that really hits the ego hard and shows that this relying on dom/aux wont work in all situations as much as previously thought.

    This thing with 8 functions where shadow functions are the regular functions in opposite orientations isnt real, they are just undeveloped inferior, tert and sometimes aux functions working together(being linked together) unconsciously, making it seem as if the orientation of actual functions were changed. Functions that are undeveloped thus unconscious are the shadow functions and orientation of these undeveloped functions is the same as it is when they are developed. For example inferior Fe linking itself(thus leading unconsciously) to dom Ti is when the orientation of inferior Fe seems to change to Fi, thats simply because Ti is working in the field of Fe, making introverted judgments about unconsciously made extraverted judgments.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

Similar Threads

  1. [INTP] Jules and Kamala - The INTP version of 'love' (hehehe)
    By Misty_Mountain_Rose in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 06-23-2009, 12:41 PM
  2. [ENFJ] How can I gauge if I am a "healthy" version of my type?
    By Jonathanthegreat in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-27-2009, 05:21 PM
  3. personalized versions of the archetypes.
    By Gabe in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10-09-2008, 11:46 AM
  4. [INTP] Becoming a "good" version of an INTP
    By ygolo in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-10-2008, 02:54 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-06-2007, 09:02 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO