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  1. #11
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    function descriptions and profile descriptions illustrated might be helpful...might present different people in relationship to their environments, but it's important to distinguish between cognitive functions and overall type. quite an undertaking, though not impossible

  2. #12
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    You just eliminated the part that is inconsistent. We're in agreement. However, that is not reality. As far as I can see most people here are using the wrong tag if you can have your way.
    But you originally suggested that, because MBTI type descriptions are vague or inconsistent, then the function system is as well. I'm telling you that is simply not true; the functions differ massively, and the order they're put in clearly determines one of the 16 types.

    It's illogical to say that you're an ISTP that doesn't have dominant-Ti and Auxillary-Se, because then you're not an ISTP! If you then turn around and say that you have Dominant-Si and Auxillary-Te, that makes you an ISTJ! It's like saying that you're an American citizen from birth, before clarifying that you were born and raised in Scotland!
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    But you originally suggested that, because MBTI type descriptions are vague or inconsistent, then the function system is as well. I'm telling you that is simply not true; the functions differ massively, and the order they're put in clearly determines one of the 16 types.

    It's illogical to say that you're an ISTP that doesn't have dominant-Ti and Auxillary-Se, because then you're not an ISTP! If you then turn around and say that you have Dominant-Si and Auxillary-Te, that makes you an ISTJ! It's like saying that you're an American citizen from birth, before clarifying that you were born and raised in Scotland!
    Actually I did not say the function system itself is inconsistent. Please re-read post number 4. I think you replied before I put the second paragraph in, which is my conclusion. If the function system itself is inconsistent I wouldn't have agreed to it being a basis for the comics, as it would be pointless.

    I can reiterate my point again. The function system itself I do not have a problem with. What I had a problem with was that the functions don't match the 4 letter code people use to identify themselves with. Hence my proposal to separate the two. If that were the case, instead of ISTP, people will be identifying themselves as TiSe. Which I suspect is also what Tamske had picked up anyway, with her avatar.

    Edit: Actually now I see where the problem is. Yes, bad wording on my part. This last paragraph is the better version.
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  4. #14
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    Come on... you're forgetting that the descriptions aren't math definitions or something.
    They are ideal images. Most people are in the middle.
    What if you relate to the description of the ISTP engineer and at the same time to Si-Te? Nothing wrong with that. Why could a Si-Te not be an 'engineer'?
    I guess this just indicates the flaws in the system. And the main 'flaw' is: we're working with humans, not with elementary particles. You can expect every electron to behave the same. You just can't expect every ISTP to behave the same.
    Humans are too complicated for easy symmetric systems such as this. The problem is that you'd want to over-analyse things. I do this - how does it fit with my type? I use that - how does that fit? Sometimes it DOESN'T fit.

    Why am I still interested in MBTI despite it's undecisiveness? Because it's a tool to me - a description tool. Not a declarative one. It doesn't say that you're this or that because of this and that.
    You relate to the ISTP description and you're heavy on Si-Te? My mind can already form a picture of you. Even if it's still a very vague one, it's already more detailed than "ISTP" alone or "Si-Te" alone.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Come on... you're forgetting that the descriptions aren't math definitions or something.
    They are ideal images. Most people are in the middle.
    What if you relate to the description of the ISTP engineer and at the same time to Si-Te? Nothing wrong with that. Why could a Si-Te not be an 'engineer'?
    I guess this just indicates the flaws in the system. And the main 'flaw' is: we're working with humans, not with elementary particles. You can expect every electron to behave the same. You just can't expect every ISTP to behave the same.
    Humans are too complicated for easy symmetric systems such as this. The problem is that you'd want to over-analyse things. I do this - how does it fit with my type? I use that - how does that fit? Sometimes it DOESN'T fit.

    Why am I still interested in MBTI despite it's undecisiveness? Because it's a tool to me - a description tool. Not a declarative one. It doesn't say that you're this or that because of this and that.
    You relate to the ISTP description and you're heavy on Si-Te? My mind can already form a picture of you. Even if it's still a very vague one, it's already more detailed than "ISTP" alone or "Si-Te" alone.
    Ti is anal retentive about the details. It is part of the type. In fact, the exchange above makes a very good illustration of TiSe (the need to make the theories apply) and TiNe (the need for flawless logical consistency).
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  6. #16
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    ^If you take into account the limits of the theory, you can make it consistent.
    Even in mathematics there are all sorts of limits and conditions. There are number sets where 2+2 = 0. Still, everybody will say 2+2 = 4 and assume they are working in the "usual" number set of real numbers.
    "ISTP <-> TiSe" shows more exceptions than "2+2 = 4" - just take them into account...

    The ENTP in my profile (together with the NeTi avatar - both do fit me) is just a crude first approximation of me. There is a big dose of INTP in me, some heaping spoonfuls of ENFP, a dash of INFP and ESTJ,... and a lot of things undescribed by MBTI.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    ^If you take into account the limits of the theory, you can make it consistent.
    Even in mathematics there are all sorts of limits and conditions. There are number sets where 2+2 = 0. Still, everybody will say 2+2 = 4 and assume they are working in the "usual" number set of real numbers.
    "ISTP <-> TiSe" shows more exceptions than "2+2 = 4" - just take them into account...

    The ENTP in my profile (together with the NeTi avatar - both do fit me) is just a crude first approximation of me. There is a big dose of INTP in me, some heaping spoonfuls of ENFP, a dash of INFP and ESTJ,... and a lot of things undescribed by MBTI.
    Ti-doms are harsh judges. Exceptions are bad.

    That said, I find the functions, as understood in socionics, has few exceptions.
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  8. #18
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Socionics is what must be being thought of here, if ISTP (or more accurately, ISTp) is said to be SiTe. Are you sure these "descriptions" you saw were not on Socionics sites, or perhaps even people from here, using Socionics?
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Socionics is what must be being thought of here, if ISTP (or more accurately, ISTp) is said to be SiTe. Are you sure these "descriptions" you saw were not on Socionics sites, or perhaps even people from here, using Socionics?
    It doesn't matter. The effect is just the same. Some people use one, some use the other. That's where the confusion is, and also why I think Tamske need to make the distinction clear.
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  10. #20
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but it is not MY place to make those distinctions clear.
    I am not a psychologist.
    I'm just an interested party, but I'm a total stranger to socionics.

    There are already too many books written by people who think they know something and which annoy the specialists or are even totally wrong. I see lots of nonsense written about string theory. My husband sees even more nonsense written about climate.

    I'm not going to make the same mistake. I'm NOT going to write a book about those functions. However, I am willing to provide illustrations!

    There is even another problem... MBTI is a trademark. How are you going to write a book about mental functions without mentioning MBTI? Is someone willing to dig out the trademark law and get permission?

    All by all, now I'm thinking it was all just a crazy, impossible to realize, idea... ENTPs are bad, ENFPs are bad (Wonka is one) and if you put them together it gets worse still...

    Luckily my External Te (my husband) sometimes sets me straight. Bye bye book on mental functions
    But... I'm working on my novel again. YES!
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