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  1. #21
    Member ps646566's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay I fail totally in seeing how you arrived at this conclusion. Could you illuminate me?
    ISTJ as I understand it savours of the conservative, conformist, reserved, loyal, organised, stiff-upper-lip kind of person who typified the Englishman -- always a gross generalisation of course. England has changed and the young are predominantly not like this, nor do they aspire to be. An extrovert personality is now favoured -- witness the immense popularity of 'reality television' and the preoccupation with 'celebrity'. We are a live-for-today society -- faddish, fashion-obsessed, short-termist, and rather shallow. Also the 'touchy-feely' approach is favoured over the stiff-upper-lip -- thus the preoccupation with things like diversity, human rights, and political correctness. This to me is all more ESFX than ISTJ.
    INTJ bordering on ISTJ

  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps646566 View Post
    ISTJ as I understand it savours of the conservative, conformist, reserved, loyal, organised, stiff-upper-lip kind of person who typified the Englishman -- always a gross generalisation of course. England has changed and the young are predominantly not like this, nor do they aspire to be. An extrovert personality is now favoured -- witness the immense popularity of 'reality television' and the preoccupation with 'celebrity'. We are a live-for-today society -- faddish, fashion-obsessed, short-termist, and rather shallow. Also the 'touchy-feely' approach is favoured over the stiff-upper-lip -- thus the preoccupation with things like diversity, human rights, and political correctness. This to me is all more ESFX than ISTJ.
    The country itself is more ISTJ than anything, the counter culture you're observing is most likely to be ENFP, hence the popularity of facebook and it's ilk. No matter how huggy they get and how over the top they act most people still work away quite merrily in a set of rules which require a person to be a walking encyclopaedia of formalities and expectations. I suppose though that the precise entries required vary according to the context. No matter what group you're talking about there's enough strictures to require a person to really pay attention before they can meld in with them.

    Watch how the english divide, we separate people into pigeon holes and then deal with them according to the hole they have been allocated. We rarely deal with people as who they are or try to understand their motivations or desires. For this alone I'd rule out any ESF profile but more so they lack the NT undertones which go with SFs. Wind up the english and they become irrational not calculating.

    I suppose there is the argument though that whilst we may be one type we value another more. That just doesn't compute though.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
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    Seeing as I've little experience with the MBTI thingy, I can only take a bit of a stab. xD;;;

    In my country, Singapore ( lil' island in the sea in South East Asia ), I think that SJ-ish qualities are most valued. Because model Singaporeans are seen as organised, responsible and very commited to the community, see. Plus, the rigid laws there are quite suitable for an SJ-ish environment to flourish.

    In S'Pore, most of the business-y jobs are office and desk bound activities, which is something that most SJs would find fine. Plus, what with all the values of Chinese familial loyalty and all sorts of traditions and whatnot there, SJs would be very appreciated and accepted, since SJs, according to what I've learned about them, seem to like the whole value and conventional thing.

    In Singapore, obedience is treasured: obedience to family, laws, rules, teachers, bosses, values and a lot of other stuff too. So...yeah. That's why I think that SJs would be most valued in Singapore.

    -slinks away shyly-

  4. #24
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I think I'm generally well appreciated here.

  5. #25
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Ah that explains why you seem such an English gent. England is most definitely ISTJ. Tight down to the well groomed little bowler hat which serves no useful purpose at all but was somehow decided upon as the standard.
    That sounds right, IMO (or at least fits my stereotypes of Brits)

    My guesses for other countries

    Canada: ISTP
    France: ENFJ
    Germany: INTJ
    Italy: ESFJ
    Ireland: ISFJ
    Australia: ESTP
    Russia: ESTJ
    China: ISFJ

    Western society in general: ENTJ
    Autistic INFP


  6. #26
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I think while earlier I said France is very Ne friendly, the UK seems to be quite... well... I dunno, it's very cosmopolitan so it's hard to say what type or trait is most valued because there are huge gaps between the generations.

    The older generation males probably value Te/Si most, while the females probably Fe.

    The middle generation it's probably still the same for females, but less Si for males.

    The younger generation... probably a combination of Se, Fi and Ne.

    There are generation divisions in France too, but in my part of it, not anywhere near so much as all over the UK. I mean I can approach old guys for a light on a town square bench and end up chatting away with them in a very Ne way, just the same as might happen with a younger person on a tram who I help operate the ticket machine. People in France just talk to each other a lot more than in the UK, so I think probably it's a more extravert type of culture.
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  7. #27
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    Western society in general: ENTJ
    My father would probably most strongly disagree with this (he's an ENTJ). He's always said "there's only one way to do something and that's the right way". I usually added "Is that your way then?" with the predictable response of "Yes". According to him very little is done correctly and so I can't see the west being ENTJ. Overall I think there are very few N based countries. They tend to be the more outlandish places where innovation is rewarded. Definitely not the trend in Europe where you're never rewarded unless you stick to the system.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #28
    Member ps646566's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The country itself is more ISTJ than anything, the counter culture you're observing is most likely to be ENFP, hence the popularity of facebook and it's ilk.
    I just looked at a type description of ENFP. It seems to fit Tony Blair perfectly -- he who has, sadly in my view, had such an influence over the culture of modern Britain.
    INTJ bordering on ISTJ

  9. #29
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The country itself is more ISTJ than anything, the counter culture you're observing is most likely to be ENFP, hence the popularity of facebook and it's ilk. No matter how huggy they get and how over the top they act most people still work away quite merrily in a set of rules which require a person to be a walking encyclopaedia of formalities and expectations. I suppose though that the precise entries required vary according to the context. No matter what group you're talking about there's enough strictures to require a person to really pay attention before they can meld in with them.

    Watch how the english divide, we separate people into pigeon holes and then deal with them according to the hole they have been allocated. We rarely deal with people as who they are or try to understand their motivations or desires. For this alone I'd rule out any ESF profile but more so they lack the NT undertones which go with SFs. Wind up the english and they become irrational not calculating.

    I suppose there is the argument though that whilst we may be one type we value another more. That just doesn't compute though.
    It is not about the type.
    It is about tradition and culture.

    All of the places I have lived in, England scores the number one.

    The stiff upper lip is only a precaution against fools. It does not characterize the person.

    Smile when you address them. Be apologetic in a funny, humorous way. Pay respect, but not directly. Do not fawn. Be your own self.

  10. #30
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    my female entj best friend feels incredibly out of place, too masculine, too aggressive, to be acceptable. she's told me this repeatedly. perhaps a male entj wouldn't be in the same position?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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