User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 77

  1. #41
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    4,915

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    That is unfortunate... kind of like an INTP who sucks at logic.
    Actually i disagree with you .. It is not unfortunate at all .. As i am sure you are aware, with age comes wisdom We stop sweating the small stuff, it is not important in the grand scheme of things .. So i am not a great host, doesn't mean i don't have other endearing qualities though
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  2. #42
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Posts
    297

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    What ever happened to the route of viewing any grouping system as valid in its proper context? There's no need to invalidate NF/NT/SJ/SP in order to validate EJ/EP/IJ/IP or vice versa. They all attempt to capture a facet of a type. Admittedly, NF/NT/SJ/SP is based more on observable behavior whilst EJ/EP/IJ/IP is based more on a person's psychological functioning with slightly less concern paid to behavior.
    I like this, and you're right, it's more theoretical than practical. That's what I was going for. If you have these alternative groupings I think it tends to group people more intuitively on how they function deep down and what drives them to behave the way they do, so that when they come together for discussion (like on the threads) there is a better mesh of alternative preferences to S/N and T/F. They learn from each other without the negative aspects of deep down communication blocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    These are George Frisbie's "Sociability Temperaments". (I've heard he was critical of Keirsey's groupings) I don't know why those never caught on. They do apparently have some significance. At east one theorist, Brenda Mullins (Personality Page) suggests these are the first things to develop in a child, before the dominant function is even chosen.
    And for N types, they do coincide with the Interaction Styles.
    ET, IT, EF, IF is another grouping that might have some merit.
    I'll have to look into that, I'm not familiar with it, thanks for pointing that out

    Quote Originally Posted by musttry View Post
    I see the interest in reorganising groupings and this could be done a great many ways. However, you have to find the configuration that explains the similarities and differences the most. Ignoring how people perceive and decide in favour of whether it is introverted or extraverted does not fit well with MBTI. The whole point of this system is HOW people function to explain the output while enneagram groups people according to their output.
    I see the point - some people need to know the specifics of which functional preference is being used. I disagree, however, because I think that deep down Se and Ne are more alike than Si and Se or Ni and Ne. The functions are more similar than the modes in which they are experienced. This is why we have such close "scales" between S/N and T/F, or at least some claim to have. They know that they use some form of external perception, they just have a hard time putting their finger on which one. This system allows types to be grouped more according to the underlying principles of why they behave the way they do, not how specifically it is that they do it. The reasons for the behavior are more important distinctions than variances in the behavior itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post

    As far as I'm concerned, if you can come up with some better DESCRIPTORS, then you actually have a great theory.
    I agree. Much to Edgar's and others' dismay on this thread, I really think that is the biggest weakness of my proposition. Again, VagrantFarce offered some great (albeit slightly facetious) synonyms. ( Thanks Vagrant!) Anyone else care to contribute?

    kthxbai

  3. #43
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    This seems okay... The main problem I have with Keirsley is that for Sensors the divide is made between J and P, while for Ns it's made along T/F. Is the T/F divide more important to Ns and the J/P divide more important to Ss? If so, why?

    Why not:

    SJ - the Guardians
    SP - the Artists
    NJ - the Visionaries
    NP - the Dreamers

    Or:
    ST - the Down-to-earth
    SF - the People-minded
    NT - the Rationals
    NF - the Idealists

    Or:
    FJ - the Value-minded
    FP - the Emotion-minded
    TJ - the Efficients
    TP - the Theorists

    I'm not too happy with some of the names, but I couldn't find better ones in English.

    Hm - I'm able to make the divide along any pair. Does that mean every dichotomy is equally important? (Making the distance between an S and an N comparable to the distance between a T and an F, for example)?

  4. #44
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    This is because Keirsey's groups and the Interaction Styles ultimately stem from the old Galenic humor temperaments. (The ones I always talk about). They were measured basically by factors that translate into I/E and people/task, rather than any form of perception. Immanuel Kant introduced a form of perception called "perception of beauty" which tied together opposite temperaments. So Sanguine and Melancholic (opposite in both I/E and people/task) became high beauty perceivers, which was a forerunner of Sensing. Ernst Kretschmer either picked up on this, or by chance developed a model that was like an extension of this, with his Character Styles, which also maintained the same division of Melancholic and what amounts to Sanguine ("hypomanic") on the same side ("cyclothymes"), and the other two as "schizothymes". This appears to be the system Keirsey picked up, and later mapped to MBTI.
    So then we inherit this built-in split along the perception functions (S/N) where Sensory temperaments are defined by one set of factors, and iNtuitive temperaments are defined by another.

    Both T/F and J/P would fit the old temperament factor of "people/task", but they alternate between the Keirseyan groups and Interaction Styles along S/N: What S defines for one grouping, N defines for the other; and vice versa.

    I do see the other (symmmetrical) groupings as having use, but the ancient temperaments seem to be the ones that have stuck as being the core of personality.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  5. #45
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    1,155

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post

    SJ - the Guardians
    SP - the Artists
    NJ - the Visionaries
    NP - the Dreamers

    Or:
    ST - the Down-to-earth
    SF - the People-minded
    NT - the Rationals
    NF - the Idealists

    Or:
    FJ - the Value-minded
    FP - the Emotion-minded
    TJ - the Efficients
    TP - the Theorists

    These are pretty good.

    I like how this is developing.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  6. #46
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    @ Eric B: so the division is historical, not inherent to the typology itself. Nothing wrong with that, of course. It does strenghten my idea that division can be made along any line, though. This is a good thing, actually, because that means the dichotomies are well chosen.

    @ Wonkavision: thanks!
    I've tested those names with some of the types. For example, you could call an ENTP a dreaming rational theorist - which is a pretty accurate description of me. (Actually, I'm more of a rational theoretical dreamer, but okay...)

  7. #47
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Yeah; historical is a good way to put it. Even though we use those groupings extensively now, they are strictly from Keirsey, and Keirsey's theory is realy different from MBTI. He just found a way to get the four temperaments, via what he calls "role variants" onto the MBTI type code. From what I hear, he's been moving further and further away from type and the letters, focusing exclusively on the named four temperaments.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  8. #48
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post
    The IxxP, by virtue of its functions, will use some form of Ji (introverted judging) as a dominant (leading) functional role. This could be Ti or Fi.

    The IxxJ, by virtue of its functions will use some form of Pi (introverted perception) as a leading role, either Si or Ni.

    The ExxP will use some form of Pe (extroverted perception) as its leading role, either Ne or Se.

    The ExxJ will use some form of Je (extroverted judging) as its lead role, either Te or Fe.
    You've got names for introverts based on how they interact with themselves, and for extroverts based on how they interact with the world. Got a reason for that? Not that many people are going to witness the introvert interacting with himself. They're going to see how he interacts with the world. And you've got all the IJs together, sort of suggesting that Fe and Te don't make much difference in what role a person takes. Whacha tryin to pull? Make all the introverts think they're supposed to be locked up inside themselves? I call Fe plotz.

    I'm not a learner, really. I decide stuff. Filling Ni up with junk isn't really worth anything without Je decisions. In my case, Te. Thus, system building. So, at least from what I'm immediately thinking right now, it would seem that calling me an NT makes more sense than calling me an IJ.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #49
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm not a learner, really. I decide stuff.
    I would think that's what makes you a J, not an NT. Ni fills up but you don't really have problems with that. Te uses the stuff he needs and will always find the information he needs.

    I'm just comparing with myself. I'm NT too. I don't decide stuff, I learn.

    Right now, I'm imagining the functions as a sort of persons sitting in my head and governing myself.

    Ne is like an enthousiastic know-it-all, always finding out new weird connections, associating like mad, making strange leaps from one topic to a totally unrelated (except for Ne and Ni) topic.

    Ti is the one sifting through the information Ne brings, checking internal consistency and deciding which one I should follow through. But he can't work in peace - every few minutes Ne bothers him. Sometimes my Ti just says yes to a stupid idea to get rid of Ne.

    Totally different from your functions!

    Dominant Ni would also create more connections and ideas than Te can swallow. Only Ni doesn't knock on the door of Te every few minutes. It's the other way around.

    I can see Te as a sort of judge. Once in a while, he calls together a meeting of the functions, deciding on the questions at hand. They are questions the outside world poses. He's the active one, he's the one asking Ni for the information he needs.

  10. #50
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I can see Te as a sort of judge. Once in a while, he calls together a meeting of the functions, deciding on the questions at hand. They are questions the outside world poses. He's the active one, he's the one asking Ni for the information he needs.
    Sounds like ENTJ. For INTJ I'd put Ni and Te in similar roles that you had for Ne and Ti. Except, for me at least, Ni doesn't seem to have the wild and crazy in-the-moment feel that Ne doms always talk about for Ne. But if you ever see an INTJ write something before they've properly drafted it, you can see the giant holes left by Ni leaps that Te hasn't papered over yet.

    I like being a system builder, dammit! Do ISFJs view themselves as system builders? If so, then lets all be IJs together. What about INFJs and ISTJs? If all of us IJs aren't system builders of some kind, what do I get out of this new nomenclature? if I trade in the system builder identity, what do I get in return? Learner? Too ineffectual. Reminds me of my Se anxieties again.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

Similar Threads

  1. Alternatives to the Pill
    By Reborn Relic in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-05-2017, 12:50 PM
  2. Organized pugilism as an alternative to gun violence ...?
    By iwakar in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-10-2016, 12:10 PM
  3. do you think if a far better more efficent alternative to oil was found,
    By jcloudz in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-26-2013, 12:55 AM
  4. An alternative to capatilist profit based Economy
    By bluemountaintree in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 04-22-2012, 06:02 PM
  5. Alternatives to Champix (a quit smoking thread)
    By CrystalViolet in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-06-2011, 11:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO