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Thread: P and J

  1. #11
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Huh. I can see both methods.

    For me, I like planning things like trips, and social events, so I have a general idea of what's going to happen in my life. I like having a general structure.

    But I also know by this point that half the time, things don't always work out (friends cancel because they aren't feeling well, etc), so I guess I don't freak out when my plans fall through. I might be disappointed, but then I get over it. It's kinda an 'expected' possibility that things could change. :-) So I don't get really worked up if things change on me.

    Substitute, with your J example of the husband, I really don't think that would ever be something I'd do, and I guess I don't feel I operate that way - i.e. being so single-minded and attached to a huge life plan that I'm caught off guard when other people and events don't shape themselves to my plan. *I* may be able to implement a level of control on MY life, but I never in my wildest dreams think I can begin to add any control/structure to anyone else...because they're operating of their own accord. :-) But I kind of see what you were trying to illustrate - I'm just not really sure this is a strictly J/P scenario. I think it's a combo of things.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I agree with substitute's description of P -- that is how I understand my thinking process in my head. My ultimate goal is picking the best/most efficient/effective solution, and this demands constant modification of my plans as I go, as new information comes to light. To predetermine goals feels painful and even wrong to me.

    In J's favor, the most functional J's seem to consistently review their decisions and change them if new information occurs. They simply feel more secure feeling at a particular moment if they have a goal they can articulate cleanly. As a P, I hate how inconstant that feels -- I would rather not articulate the goal until I know it's the best one. So I have no choice but to focus on "process," rather than results.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #13
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I certainly consider it a bigger division than with E/I or F/T, personally.
    Oh I dunno about that.... my brother's ENFP so the only function difference between us is Ti/Fi, and yet last night we were up until 5am arguing and misunderstanding each other as though we'd been speaking in heiroglyphs.

    It seemed like anything I said, no matter how clearly I tried to say it, he took completely the wrong way, and vice versa. It was one of the most stressful conversations I've ever had in my life - second only to another one I had with him a few months ago!!

    Most of the time we get along fine, but now and again it comes about that there's been a huge backlog of 'times' when one has assumed that the other meant something other than what they meant, and that monolithic misunderstandings have been lurking, unbenownst to us, beneath the surface for ...well, years.

    And then when we try to correct these misunderstandings, it only seems to create even more, and consolidate the ones we already have.
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  4. #14
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Oh I dunno about that.... my brother's ENFP so the only function difference between us is Ti/Fi, and yet last night we were up until 5am arguing and misunderstanding each other as though we'd been speaking in heiroglyphs.
    Yeah those two functions can make a big difference in interpersonal relations. I was concerned about my own experiences and intrapersonal flexibility. It seems that T and F functions may suggest totally incompatible end results, whereas J/P is about the methods to achieve the results.

    Of course the method can become the end result for some; someone can demand that a decision be made, whereas someone else would rather have it remain open.

  5. #15
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...because she was unhappy and lonely when her husband was always away and working. All she wanted was for him to spend time with her.
    Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, allow me to present you with P-caricaturization-of-a-failed-J-relationship A.

  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I define the goal itself ahead of time, but not the process for reaching the goal. I usually just choose whichever process for reaching it looks best at the time, but then if it becomes impractical/unworkable, I'll switch to another method of reaching the same goal. I'm perfectly willing to use any reasonable method, or ignore various details, as long as it still works toward the same basic goal. Also, I'm willing to abandon smaller goals for the sake of larger ones if the situation requires it, so I prioritize. Also, my goals aren't always very specific/exact. They can be if I'm trying to meet someone else's goals (which I often am), but my personal goals are usually more abstract, although I still work towards them.

    This just proves why J's are more successful in the long run. It makes no sense to go somewhere without having any idea of where you're going. P's only care about processes, and don't have an eye on what the process is actually producing until it's too late, and thus they don't seem to intentionally produce anything except art and accidents (although sometimes they are very useful accidents).

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    This just proves why J's are more successful in the long run.
    That's only because you're using a "J" definition of "success," silly.

    P's only care about processes, and don't have an eye on what the process is actually producing until it's too late, and thus they don't seem to intentionally produce anything except art and accidents (although sometimes they are very useful accidents).
    Excuse me, but I think your type bias is showing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's only because you're using a "J" definition of "success," silly.
    There's another? The P's probably couldn't agree on a definition of success, so only J's have one.

    Excuse me, but I think your type bias is showing.
    Well, I am a J... wouldn't you expect me to be a little biased? I mean, I'm not called a "Judging" type for nothing. Besides, I didn't say that was what P's actually did, I was just saying that that's all that P's appear to be doing from a J perspective, stumbling around and somehow managing to get by.

  9. #19
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    There's another? The P's probably couldn't agree on a definition of success, so only J's have one.
    Ps have all variety of definitions of success. The important thing is that their definitions allow them to feel smugly superior to Js while keeping them largely out of our way. Everyone wins!

  10. #20
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I think the vagueness of the goals works on a continuum in the J/P spectrum.

    My extreme-P friend drives me nuts, because seemingly almost anything can change to almost anything; he considers that it's trivial to ask 10 people for some other hobby than initially planned, because supposedly everyone just wants to have fun and any action could produce the wanted results. I of course disagree. He also used to fish for changes in plans all the time depending on what he wanted to do. So I decided to make a mega number about how much it sucks for him to miss out everything we have planned and what we will do, and how much fun the rest of us are going to have. This approach worked; he didn't get to change the plans, but he adopted his schedule to the pre-set schedule. A silly guy really, it's just that others will have to make HIS life bad because of the changes he always makes, and not to accept that he will make other's plans fail. He never ever seems to stop trying tho. I think perhaps 1-3% of population are more P than him.

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