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  1. #21
    Senior Member Tyrant's Avatar
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    You make no sense, I'm not sure if it's unintentional, or you're purposely trying to make me look bad. I never question the validity of function analysis, just a person's competence in doing so. And I said if you label yourself as INxP, you admit to being ignorant because both Ti and Fi are contradicting elements. INTx because INTP and INTJ share none of the same valued functions.
    INTP | IEI - INFp

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    To me it is the other way around, I think functional analysis is more useful in practical applications. For example, my friend is an INFP who also happens to be a philosophy student, her Ti score was near even to her Fi. If I were to ignore this function that is so strongly developed just because it wasn't "natural" but was rather trained, I would be pretty much ignoring a very large and important aspect of her personality.

    By learning someone's functional order, you can deduce what they will respond to and what they will not respond to. Like I can't just say "Well I won't make a Ti argument to you because you will not understand or appreciate it". And development is varied with each individual, so I think having the knowledge of how to best communicate with a person is more valuable and practical than just knowing their mbti letters.
    I think that, on a personal level I agree with you.

    However, society usually doesn't give a shit about individual needs, and I'm taking the societal point of view.

    Maybe I'm just bitter because I am constantly reconsidering my functional analysis results. Fi>Ne=Ni>Ti>Si... That's a lot of introversion...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    You make no sense, I'm not sure if it's unintentional, or you're purposely trying to make me look bad. I never question the validity of function analysis, just a person's competence in doing so. And I said if you label yourself as INxP, you admit to being ignorant because both Ti and Fi are contradicting elements. INTx because INTP and INTJ share none of the same valued functions.
    No. I'm not intentionally making you look bad. I don't understand where you're coming from, so its good that you are clarifying your stance. Edit: In this case, your stance would not be very much different from Xander. As a point of agreement, neither do I believe in cross-typing, which is why I spent time trying to clarify my own processes. This also leads me to the question of changing types, which I thought was impossible before, but am less sure of now.

  4. #24
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    When comparing Functional Analysis with MBTI Tests, one can deduce that they are inconsistent for one primary reason

    The MBTI Tests measure your preferences based on 50/50 questions, which are taken into direct account in summation of your functional preferences (Preset MBTI Archetype). Thus, the test taker is inevitably assigned an archetype on completion of the test.

    On the other hand, Functional Analysis determines the measurements of specific functions regardless of direct coincidence with MBTI Archetypes. For instance, one could feasibly complete the Functional Analysis test and get a result like:

    extraverted Sensing (Se) *
    no use
    introverted Sensing (Si) *
    no use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *
    no use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) *
    no use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) *
    no use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) *
    no use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) *
    no use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) *
    no use
    Actually, that test won't let you do that. Over on INTPc; a bunch of the guys reverse engineered it, and tried to get 100% on all the functions to see what would happen, and it said "reenter choices to reflect a more realistic preference" or something like that.

    But I always felt the forced choice format was less than realistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    (Realize this is an older post, but...)

    Huh, this is exactly the same issue I'm having. Granted, I'm still struggling with it and trying to give the Archetype Model a very fair shake, but my experience with Ti is much like yours.

    I really like the 8 functions and find them to be very useful concepts, but matching them up to the expected archetypal roles is causing me serious cognitive dissonance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    For me, the Archetype Model sounds nice on paper, but even if I think of myself as another type, it clashes with my experience of how I use the functions. Take Ti for example. This process isn't demonic for me, it isn't heroic, and it isn't childlike. It's simply a tool that I feel compelled to use on a regular basis. Sometimes I use it too much, and feel cold and dead, and sometimes I use it too little and lose the ability to communicate. It falls into one archetype, then into another, and sometimes it leaps out of them altogether.
    I think the problem hers again is not looking at the archetypes in terms of complexes. The processes are not "demonic" or "heroic"; it is complexes within your ego that you have to look for. The "hero" is simply the main ego, with its preferred functions. Demonic personality is its total opposite; something you tend to be destructive with. The child is an initially rejected aspect of the hero in which your vulnerabilities lie, and it tries to maintain the hero's dominant attitude. Outside of these complexes, you won't notice any particular roles for Fi or Ti.

    Now for you, things might be more diffificult, since you seem to be inbetween on T/F. However, you do mention "feeling cold and dead" using Ti too much: while only "losing an ability to communicate" using it too little. That sounds like Ti might be associated with a demon complex, while the failure to communicate might be something else. Do you get annoyed when others use Ti, feeling they are being cold and dead, and then want to rip up what they say? That would be a sign of a demonic complex.
    Last edited by Eric B; 11-15-2009 at 11:27 AM.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  5. #25
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Xander is one of the people on this site that makes a ton of sense.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  6. #26
    A Benign Tumor PoprocksAndCoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The problem is that analysing all eight functions just seems to lead people off into a fairy land of theory. They argue that someone uses Ti primarily or Te, surely that has nothing to do with T and more to do with other areas.

    The thing is from experience I've seen that people are typed more accurately and faster by observing their habits and having a holistic understanding of the types and how they interact and behave in various situations. I therefore wonder what purpose this analysing where Te is as opposed to Ti and going into reams of details. I have to conclude with the information at my disposal that function analysis as performed on this forum is simply bad practice.
    Sometimes going off in to the land of fairies can't be helped in typology.
    Not that I completely disagree with you, but I like to use every aspect while typing.
    "In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present." -Francis Bacon

    "No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." -George Chakiris

  7. #27
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I think the problem hers again is not looking at the archetypes in terms of complexes. The processes are not "demonic" or "heroic"; it is complexes within your ego that you have to look for. The "hero" is simply the main ego, with its preferred functions. Demonic personality is its total opposite; something you tend to be destructive with. The child is an initially rejected aspect of the hero in which your vulnerabilities lie, and it tries to maintain the hero's dominant attitude. Outside of these complexes, you won't notice any particular roles for Fi or Ti.
    I'm not sure if I understand the distinction between a demonic process and a process used by a demonic complex. If your demon complex commands a process, wouldn't that process be demonic, for all practical purposes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B
    Now for you, things might be more diffificult, since you seem to be inbetween on T/F. However, you do mention "feeling cold and dead" using Ti too much: while only "loosing an ability to communicate" using it too little. That sounds like Ti might be associated with a demon complex, while the failure to communicate might be something else. Do you get annoyed when others use Ti, feeling they are being cold and dead, and then want to rip up what they say? That would be a sign of a demonic complex.
    I often admire Ti; it can be used for wonderful analysis, and it has a great insight into logical structures. I do get annoyed, though, when I see people do that to the exclusion of their human, emotional side. What annoys me about this is that these people seem to distrust something that I think is very important.

    I also feel bothered when I see people stick models onto reality with the attitude that these models are objectively true and that nothing can contradict them. It's fine to stick models onto reality, because this is how we make sense of the world, but it puts me off when people become so attached to a logical principle that they refuse to acknowledge any other possibility or interpretation.

    One of the instances where I felt this most acutely was when someone on another website kept criticizing the MBTI, not because of anything wrong with the theory itself, but simply because the MBTI isn't loyal to Jung's original definitions. Morally speaking, I couldn't understand why this person wouldn't consider another interpretation, why it was they had this staunch loyalty to that one logical principle. So it's really not so much Ti in itself that bothers me (except where it's used to the exclusion of human warmth) as it is Ti + Si that bothers me. When I see people use these two functions together, I do feel a desire to rip their thoughts to pieces, just as you described. I'm much less likely, though, to feel that toward one of those functions by itself.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  8. #28
    Senior Member musttry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    To more closely locate what it is that I'm on about...
    Firstly since when does the context define the object?
    Since always

    Regards,

    - your neighbourhood overly developed Ni user

  9. #29
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    The context defines the object for Je. Pi can see things any number of different ways; there's no need to pick one until some external goal has been defined and Je takes over to get it done.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by musttry View Post
    Since always

    Regards,

    - your neighbourhood overly developed Ni user
    Yep, context is everything.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

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