About Intuition

[Thalassa]

Maybe not, but more than a few percent can.

When the world population exceeds 6 Billion people, a few percent appears to be a large number of Ns.

 

[brainheart]

I just honestly think it's [Ne] often defined in a way that makes it indistinguishable from the other functions.

I whole-heartedly agree; hence the confusion for many.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Yes, ENFPfer, thank you! That is exactly how I feel; I appreciate seeing my sentiments formulated so succinctly.

Lest we all forget, there is a primary, auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior function. If I am indeed an ISFP, this would mean that my tertiary function is Ni. Jung scholar Lenore Thomson believes we often rely on our first and third function, which would be for me Fi+Ni. The way that I grow and actually live up to my talents, however, is by using Se to support my Fi. I have found throughout my life this to be most definitely true. When I use Fi+Ni and remove the Se reality check, I definitely reside in this insular fantasy world, resplendent with magical thinking and hidden meanings which do not exist. Se grounds me and encourages me to engage my feelings/thoughts/ideas with the outside world- how things really are. This doesn't mean I stop using my Ni; it means my Ni reaches better conclusions when my Se perceptions are taken into account.


Sorry to ramble and somewhat deviate from the primary discussion, but I'm trying to express how intuition comes into play for a sensor.

Exactly how I understand it as well. Glad it helped!

 

[jenocyde]

I absolutely believe that Ne is a valuable function and that many abilities come easily to Ne-doms that are more challenging for Ss (and obviously the reverse). I just honestly think it's often defined in a way that makes it indistinguishable from the other functions.

Of course it is indistinguishable because it works in tandem with all the other functions. Every single person senses, intuits, feels and thinks. Everyone. You merely have a preference as to which function you prefer to live in. And you have a preference as to whether you introvert or extrovert that function. A smaller percent of the population prefers to live in their N. Most likely because it's simply not practical to do so. But even those that live in it can't separate it out from the others - you either use it well or you use it poorly, but everyone certainly uses it.

I could only really compare Se to Ne, since they are in the same realm (extroverted perceiving). I would say that Se follows physical impulses while Ne follows mental ones. I think an Se dom would follow a path to see where it goes whereas an Ne dom is more likely to follow and entertain a train of thought. And because the Ne dom spends lots of time thinking about thoughts that will have no bearing on their current reality, they are just simply more adept at finding hidden meanings (such as the poetry example given earlier), or they will be quicker at making connections. And because Se doms spend more time in thrill-seeking behavior (as an example) they will simply be more adept at avoiding injury than an Ne dom, who has less of a concept of physical space, or they will be more adept at orienting themselves in a new city. It's really just 2 sides of the same coin and I don't know why it's buried in mystique.

EDIT - by the same token, Si is fact checking against things you already know, while Ni is predicting future outcomes. Both functions are based on seeing patterns, but their focus is different - the past vs the future. It is definitely not psychic.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Of course it is indistinguishable because it works in tandem with all the other functions. Every single person senses, intuits, feels and thinks. Everyone. You merely have a preference as to which function you prefer to live in. And you have a preference as to whether you introvert or extrovert that function. A smaller percent of the population prefers to live in their N. Most likely because it's simply not practical to do so. But even those that live in it can't separate it out from the others - you either use it well or you use it poorly, but everyone certainly uses it.

I could only really compare Se to Ne, since they are in the same realm (extroverted perceiving). I would say that Se follows physical impulses while Ne follows mental ones. I think an Se dom would follow a path to see where it goes whereas an Ne dom is more likely to follow and entertain a train of thought. And because the Ne dom spends lots of time thinking about thoughts that will have no bearing on their current reality, they are just simply more adept at finding hidden meanings (such as the poetry example given earlier). And because Se doms spend more time in thril-seeking behavior (as an example) they will simply be more adept at avoiding injury than an Ne dom, who has less of a concept of physical space. It's really just 2 sides of the same coin and I don't know why it's buried in mystique.

Absowutely. Ni and Si are much more interesting. They seem like fabrications of the mind to me, rather than cognative functions fabricating the mind. Feels all backwards-ish.

Or maybe that's just my Ti playing tricks on me. Irony.

 

[jenocyde]

Absowutely. Ni and Si are much more interesting. They seem like fabrications of the mind to me, rather than cognative functions fabricating the mind. Feels all backwards-ish.

Or maybe that's just my Ti playing tricks on me. Irony.

Hahaha, I know! Si and Ni are the hardest functions, conceptually, for me to grasp. I wish I could use them well.

 

[compulsiverambler]

I'm seriously not trying to be difficult, and I'm sure there's just something I'm missing here, but that doesn't sound any different than the way I used to write papers and study for tests (when I was in school). But, I don't have any kind of magical thinking - just the normal ability to draw connections between concepts and to spot patterns.

I apologize in advance for this long post, but I'm really trying to understand this, and wanted to explain where I'm coming from, and what my stumbling block is.

I'll try to describe how I think Si is often confused with Ne or Ni. Si is often pejoratively described as being judgmental, and even inclined to bigotry. While I definitely take exception to the bigoted label, I do think it's true that Si develops stereotypes, and stereotypes - when used by a small-minded person - can form false rationales for bigotry.

Stereotyping isn't all bad though - it's used in very smart ways by advertisers, politicians, lawyers, sociologists, etc... It's being able to instantly know (or have a pretty good idea) of which people are likely to buy a certain product, vote for a certain candidate, or which juror will vote to acquit. That requires quick associations that anyone can make: country singers probably shouldn't advertise in Vegan restaurants, or (for common political wisdom,) Subarus are for Democrats. These things are done by all people, all the time, but are probably especially common to people who use Si, because as a function it seeks to categorize the environment.

But in other contexts, that same functional ability is mistaken for Ne (because it usually accurately predicts a pattern based on unrelated information, and it picks up on coming trends very easily) or even Ni (because when someone is really good at it, it can seem like mindreading).

I've heard a lot of people suggest that in Si-doms, those associations are based on building-block connections, as though there's a conscious chain of data that leads from one fact to another. If those connections exist, they certainly aren't conscious. I've also heard people suggest that it's based on personal experience. Maybe, but it constructs a grid that goes far beyond those experiences.

I've been able to draw the distinction between the use of Si and Ne by drawing the line at reality and imagination. The Si function is extremely good at predicting, but less good at creating. To put it another way, I'd probably be pretty good at playing the stock market (if I, you know, had both the desire and the money), but I'd be pretty bad at designing a new product from scratch. Second, the connections made by Si-doms are all between real-world factors: comparing one historical era in one nation to a different era in a different nation; describing a geopolitical alliance using a high school as a metaphor, etc... My sense is that the associations made by a Ne-dom would be impossible to explain - like comparing a farm animal to a musical note. That's a rare gift and would account for Ns making up only a few percent of the population.

Back to the Stewart example. Yes, he makes connections quickly and uses those connections to toy with his guests. But those connections are reality based and functionally no different than the way I interpret and use information. Compare that to Colbert who plays around in the realm of the fantastical (changing facts on wikipedia, creating his own comic book character...) To me, that's a pretty good distinction between a highly intelligent and talented Sensor and a highly intelligent and talented Intuit.

This is why I get confused when Ne is described as proficiency in comprehending concepts/theories or making associations between disciplines (both of which seem perfectly natural for Si).

I don't have as detailed an analysis for Se-doms, but it seems like brainheart summarized it pretty well with the tennis analogy. Se makes extremely quick associations, but when those associations are used in a non-physical, more intellectual context the exact same function is usually lumped in with Ne.

I absolutely believe that Ne is a valuable function and that many abilities come easily to Ne-doms that are more challenging for Ss (and obviously the reverse). I just honestly think it's often defined in a way that makes it indistinguishable from the other functions.

I agree with almost everything here, except the Stewart thing and only because I'm not familiar enough with his show to have an opinion (and besides, that discussion is effectively typing only typing him and his team of writers collectively, not him individually). Just a few points:

Where does this 'few percent' statistic come from? I've heard estimates from 50/50 to 75/25, but no ratio that wide before.

I don't think that example is of something that would be a 'rare gift', and the connection I thought of, can be explained: both a musical note and a farm animal have been produced (likely en masse for financial gain and to poor standards) by humans and are destined to be destroyed from one point of view and transformed from another, in the process of pleasing human senses. The animal will be changed into a different set of chemicals when digested, and its component parts become part of that human. The note will change from a sound wave into a series of electro-chemical reactions on the journey to the correct part of the brain, and will become part of that human by becoming a part of that human's experience and memory.

It could conceivably be rare to have such a strong N preference that you'd spontaneously make such connections after merely seeing a pig and hearing a note, how are we to know, but it's surely not rare to be able to when prompted and after a minute's thought. I'd have noticed by now if most people I knew were incapable of abstract thought. It's just that most people don't have any reason to make connections that abstract very often so at first the prospect could sound daunting.

I don't see iNtuition as magical, mystical or unexplainable. The thought of not being able to understand your own perceptions is quite scary to me, and I'd want nothing to do with a form of perception like that. I think what bothers me about some of this thread (and other places online) is how kooky it's made to sound. You're correct that it sounds humdrum and like something everybody uses. That doesn't mean you've misunderstood the definitions, it means that it's humdrum and everybody uses it.

 

[Ruthie]

Where does this 'few percent' statistic come from? I've heard estimates from 50/50 to 75/25, but no ratio that wide before.

Keirsey puts the percentage of Ss at 85 - 90%, and most people on these boards seem to concur. Of the remaining 10 - 15%, I figure Ne is slightly more common than Ni - so, roughly 7% Ne, and 5% Ni. I have no problem believing that it's much higher than that, and what you write makes a lot of sense. I'm just going by the percentages I've heard tossed around.

I don't think that example is of something that would be a 'rare gift', and the connection I thought of, can be explained: both a musical note and a farm animal have been produced (likely en masse for financial gain and to poor standards) by humans and are destined to be destroyed from one point of view and transformed from another, in the process of pleasing human senses. The animal will be changed into a different set of chemicals when digested, and its component parts become part of that human. The note will change from a sound wave into a series of electro-chemical reactions on the journey to the correct part of the brain, and will become part of that human by becoming a part of that human's experience and memory.

It could conceivably be rare to have such a strong N preference that you'd spontaneously make such connections after merely seeing a pig and hearing a note, how are we to know, but it's surely not rare to be able to when prompted and after a minute's thought. I'd have noticed by now if most people I knew were incapable of abstract thought. It's just that most people don't have any reason to make connections that abstract very often so at first the prospect could sound daunting.

No argument there.

I don't see iNtuition as magical, mystical or unexplainable. The thought of not being able to understand your own perceptions is quite scary to me, and I'd want nothing to do with a form of perception like that. I think what bothers me about some of this thread (and other places online) is how kooky it's made to sound. You're correct that it sounds humdrum and like something everybody uses. That doesn't mean you've misunderstood the definitions, it means that it's humdrum and everybody uses it.

Is there any way to distinguish the kinds of connections and predictions made by Si (like the ones I described in the other post) and the kinds of connections and predictions made by Ne?

 

[jenocyde]

Is there any way to distinguish the kinds of connections and predictions made by Si (like the ones I described in the other post) and the kinds of connections and predictions made by Ne?

Si is incredibly detailed and Ne wants the big picture. My INTP bf operates in Ti-Si mode most of the time and I get impatient with all the details. There is a huge difference in the way we speak. I fluctuate between Ne-Fe mode and Ne-Ti mode, but Si rarely fits in anywhere. I have absolutely no patience for all the details - I can't stress that enough. It drives me quite insane, in fact. I simply don't care.

You talked of Si giving you the ability of being a possible stock market maverick... Ne can look at trends overall and possibly predict which way the wind will blow, but it will not systematically analyze and store data and compare it to present data to predict the outcome. The details do not matter. I suspect that my ex was Si dominant, as he and his father actually had this huge graph that they added data to every day for years (years!!) to play the market with. I couldn't fathom such a thing.

My Ne is at it's best when exploring possibilities, not simply making connections. You can come to me with a problem I can instantly ramble off a million and one things that could happen if you follow this path and a million other things that can happen if you follow another. This is why I was very good in my first career in software QA. I literally take the thing we are speaking about and hold it up in a 3D way in my mind and rapidly poke at it from every angle imaginable. It usually stuns people and I often hear "wow, I never thought of that" a lot. I just have the ability to see the big picture, from all angles, very quickly. I can spot a weak spot a mile away. Remembering the past events with detail and imagining a theoretical model before it's built are 2 entirely different things.

Coupled with Ti, this allows me assess exactly what someone means from the words they choose and I can instantly throw you back something you know to be absolutely true and make you doubt yourself - I know this seems mundane, but it's really not. It is no coincidence that the legal profession is filled with teflon-sprayed ENTPs. I can really excel and twist the concept in someone's words around and leaving them (and their belief system) in a pile of shambles. This is not something I am explaining with pride, I am explaining it so you can get a better idea of how Si is very different from Ne.

Ne statements (according to wikisocion) tend to sound more like "just out of curiosity...", "so, what you're really saying is...", "what would happen if...", "in the long run, it makes more sense to..." and words that are conditional in nature.

Si statements (from the same source): "once I get settled...", "I feel comfortable doing...", "compared to last time...", and words that involve a lot of texture.

 

[onemoretime]

Is there any way to distinguish the kinds of connections and predictions made by Si (like the ones I described in the other post) and the kinds of connections and predictions made by Ne?

Well, the best thing I can come up with on the fly - re: climate change

Nuclear winter is a very Si predictive concept. Less sunlight = colder temperatures. We know this, and have known this forever, because we've all gone through countless summers and winters. We know that throwing dust up in the atmosphere blocks sunlight, because we've seen that happen since the dawn of industrialization, not to mention volcanic events like the "Year Without a Summer" of 1816. The pattern there is that because massive numbers of nuclear explosions would throw a ton of dust up into the atmosphere, it would cause global temperatures to plummet.

The greenhouse effect is more of an Ne prediction. There had been no past information to demonstrate that higher levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere contributed to higher global temperatures, however, we knew that one of the molecular properties of CO2 was to reflect solar radiation back toward the ground, and that consequently, higher levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide (among other gases) would possibly lead to an increased average global temperature, even if the effects weren't immediately perceptible.

 

[Ruthie]

Si is incredibly detailed and Ne wants the big picture. My INTP bf operates in Ti-Si mode most of the time and I get impatient with all the details. There is a huge difference in the way we speak. I fluctuate between Ne-Fe mode and Ne-Ti mode, but Si rarely fits in anywhere. I have absolutely no patience for all the details - I can't stress that enough. It drives me quite insane, in fact. I simply don't care.

You talked of Si giving you the ability of being a possible stock market maverick... Ne can look at trends overall and possibly predict which way the wind will blow, but it will not systematically analyze and store data and compare it to present data to predict the outcome. The details do not matter. I suspect that my ex was Si dominant, as he and his father actually had this huge graph that they added data to every day for years (years!!) to play the market with. I couldn't fathom such a thing.

My Ne is at it's best when exploring possibilities, not simply making connections. You can come to me with a problem I can instantly ramble off a million and one things that could happen if you follow this path and a million other things that can happen if you follow another. This is why I was very good in my first career in software QA. I literally take the thing we are speaking about and hold it up in a 3D way in my mind and rapidly poke at it from every angle imaginable. It usually stuns people and I often hear "wow, I never thought of that" a lot. I just have the ability to see the big picture, from all angles, very quickly. I can spot a weak spot a mile away. Remembering the past events with detail and imagining a theoretical model before it's built are 2 entirely different things.

Coupled with Ti, this allows me assess exactly what someone means from the words they choose and I can instantly throw you back something you know to be absolutely true and make you doubt yourself - I know this seems mundane, but it's really not. It is no coincidence that the legal profession is filled with teflon-sprayed ENTPs. I can really excel and twist the concept in someone's words around and leaving them (and their belief system) in a pile of shambles. This is not something I am explaining with pride, I am explaining it so you can get a better idea of how Si is very different from Ne.

Ne statements (according to wikisocion) tend to sound more like "just out of curiosity...", "so, what you're really saying is...", "what would happen if...", "in the long run, it makes more sense to..." and words that are conditional in nature.

Si statements (from the same source): "once I get settled...", "I feel comfortable doing...", "compared to last time...", and words that involve a lot of texture.

Is it possible to have Si as a dominant function and also to not notice (let alone chart) detail?

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I wish someone would count the statements most frequently used by each type on this forum and put it into chart form.

 

[jenocyde]

Is it possible to have Si as a dominant function and also to not notice (let alone chart) detail?

I really have no idea, since Si is not my strongest function. But all literature and comments from Si users suggest that no you cannot. When you watch a movie, do you remember everyone's names while the movie is still going on? This is something that I am simply unable to do. Details like that go in one ear and out the other. I focus more on the analysis of the character.

 

[jenocyde]

I didn't like my last answer - the fact that I had no idea. So I've been looking around and came across this How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing | Interstrength Associates. Maybe this helps?


One quote:

How to tell the forest from the trees!

Extraverted Sensing - Notices the rich detail in the whole forest - the trees, their color and texture, their sounds, their smells, the pattern of light and dark...

Introverted Sensing - Notes that this forest has always been here and recalls being in a forest from childhood, smelling that smell and the fun of playing hide and seek behind the trees...

Extraverted iNtuiting - Thinks of the fractal patterns, the wide range of possibilities in the forest, how this forest is part of the ecosystem and is affected by polllution from the city...

Introverted iNtuiting - Recognizes that the forest is deeply symbolic of all of life in its interconnectedness and constant recycling and growth and foresees that this forest will soon be torn down for a housing development...

 

[Charmed Justice]

I didn't like my last answer - the fact that I had no idea. So I've been looking around and came across this How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing | Interstrength Associates. Maybe this helps?


One quote:

How to tell the forest from the trees!

Extraverted Sensing - Notices the rich detail in the whole forest - the trees, their color and texture, their sounds, their smells, the pattern of light and dark...

Introverted Sensing - Notes that this forest has always been here and recalls being in a forest from childhood, smelling that smell and the fun of playing hide and seek behind the trees...

Extraverted iNtuiting - Thinks of the fractal patterns, the wide range of possibilities in the forest, how this forest is part of the ecosystem and is affected by polllution from the city...

Introverted iNtuiting - Recognizes that the forest is deeply symbolic of all of life in its interconnectedness and constant recycling and growth and foresees that this forest will soon be torn down for a housing development...

Huh. I relate most to Ni, Se, and Si, based on the above. Hardly Ne at all. If I had to decide, I'd have to say Ni and Si.

 

[jenocyde]

Yeah, I don't think this description took the judging function into consideration. Processing Ne through Fi would certainly have an effect that looks more like the description for Ni, I would think. Or it would at least look different from someone who processed it through Ti.

Another difference between S and N (I have like 40 tabs open and I can't remember which one I just copied this from - damn Ne...)

S (Sensation) = Conscious perception; bottom-up approach to information; context emerges from the facts
N (Intuition) = Unconscious perception; top-down approach to information; pattern first, then related content

Extraverted Sensation (Se) = conscious perceptual experience: focuses on exploiting the immediate creative potential of manifest opportunity

Introverted Sensation (Si) = conscious perceptual impressions: focuses on the realistic relationship of new perceptual events to existing bodies of meaningful information


Extraverted Intuition (Ne) = unconscious perceptual experience: focuses on the contextual pattern that relates otherwise disparate facts to each other, increasing the possibilities for change

Introverted Intuition (Ni) = unconscious perceptual impressions: focuses on the potential relationship of existing perceptual meaning to alternate interpretive possibilities

 

[Charmed Justice]

Yeah, I don't think this description took the judging function into consideration. Processing Ne through Fi would certainly have an effect that looks more like the description for Ni, I would think. Or it would at least look different from someone who processed it through Ti.

What do you think that difference would look like?

Another difference between S and N (I have like 40 tabs open and I can't remember which one I just copied this from - damn Ne...)

S (Sensation) = Conscious perception; bottom-up approach to information; context emerges from the facts
N (Intuition) = Unconscious perception; top-down approach to information; pattern first, then related content

That resonates. Good info!

 

[brainheart]

Extraverted Sensation (Se) = conscious perceptual experience: focuses on exploiting the immediate creative potential of manifest opportunity

Introverted Sensation (Si) = conscious perceptual impressions: focuses on the realistic relationship of new perceptual events to existing bodies of meaningful information


Extraverted Intuition (Ne) = unconscious perceptual experience: focuses on the contextual pattern that relates otherwise disparate facts to each other, increasing the possibilities for change

Introverted Intuition (Ni) = unconscious perceptual impressions: focuses on the potential relationship of existing perceptual meaning to alternate interpretive possibilities

I read this and I don't know why the hell I thought I was an INFP, ever. Se and Ni all the way. Thanks for the good descriptions.

 

[jenocyde]

I'm glad that this stuff is resonating. I'm getting a better understanding of Si and Ni, in particular.

What do you think that difference would look like?

Hmmm, that's an interesting question. Maybe because Ne is a perceiving function that is not concerned with the concrete world and our aux function is internal, so the top 2 functions can make our types appear to be quite introverted. Which is why Ruthie could be having a problem defining the difference between that and Si.

My best guess is that we Ne doms all intuit in the same way. We just gather and gather, but Fi filters out the noise by checking each piece of data by how it makes them feel. Most times it's used to construct, maintain, challenge and reassess emotional bonds. So of course, the descriptions used would seem more dreamy or esoteric in nature. So Ne+Fi could look like Ni because that forest description had a highly personal tone and evoked a strong feeling.

The Ti filter is more concerned with consistency and validity, rather than connection. So the end result of Ne+Ti could look like Si in theory (but not in the specific forest description provided).

But me personally? The last time I walked into a forest, the trees barely registered at all. I immediately imagined myself in a scenario where I was a survivor of a wreck and had to fend for myself. I then walked around imagining myself in scenarios where I had to kill a bear with my bare hands and build shelter in a tree. I seriously started mentally devising small game traps out of the thicket (and I'm a vegetarian). Then curiosity got the best of me and I actually tried to see if I could devise a trap, just to see if my calculations were correct - which they were. Then I snapped back into reality and realized that I was a mere mile away from home before but now I was lost and didn't pay attention to the turns I took off the trail, and it was pitch black outside now. I started to panic realizing that I just created my own scenario. I took a few moments to marvel at how meta that was. Then I tried to get out of it for real by trying to track the stars like they did in that book I read when I was a kid (who the hell knows which one - The Little Prince? The Boy Scouts handbook I stole from my brother?...) I didn't even notice the fact that I hadn't even gone 15 yards in and had just been walking around in a pathetic, panicky circle for hours in a daydreamy daze - and hadn't noticed the many clearly marked signs designating the way back to the trail. Yeah, Ne+Ti, ftw?

 

[brainheart]

But me personally? The last time I walked into a forest, the trees barely registered at all. I immediately imagined myself in a scenario where I was a survivor of a wreck and had to fend for myself. I then walked around imagining myself in scenarios where I had to kill a bear with my bare hands and build shelter in a tree. I seriously started mentally devising small game traps out of the thicket (and I'm a vegetarian). Then curiosity got the best of me and I actually tried to see if I could devise a trap, just to see if my calculations were correct - which they were. Then I snapped back into reality and realized that I was a mere mile away from home before but now I was lost and didn't pay attention to the turns I took. I started to panic realizing that I just created my own scenario. I took a few moments to marvel at how meta that was. Then I tried to get out of it for real by trying to track the stars like they did in that book I read when I was a kid (who the hell knows which one - The Little Prince? The Boy Scouts handbook I stole from my brother?...) I didn't even notice the fact that I hadn't even gone 15 yards in and had just been walking around in a pathetic, panicky circle for hours in a daydreamy daze and hadn't noticed the many clearly marked signs designating the way back to the trail. Yeah, Ne+Ti, ftw?

Wow, that is intense.

I mean I will have moments like that, sometimes, but I think it is far more conscious, practical- like, 'okay, what if there was a wreck and I needed to fend for myself and kill a bear, what would I do?' And then I will observe my surroundings and think about it. Typically, however, after a little while I think, "meh. If it happens- and chances are seriously unlikely- I'll figure it out when the time comes."

Usually on a hike I'll be primarily getting stoked on noticing a bird singing up in a tree or how the bark feels on my hand or how my breathing gets into this rhythm or I'll make sure not to step on a spider who's crossing the path. I'll also do a bit of the Ni description you had for the forest, too. But I try not to because then I get all pissed about stupid developers and their greed, etc, and I didn't go on this hike to get pissed off. But there will be the positive aspects of Ni as well- the Se is just far more prominent.