About Intuition

[compulsiverambler]

I'm still trying to figure this Ne-thing out... so, like, if I'm eating ice cream, and the ice cream starts to melt, and that makes me think of global warming and melting glaciers, and glaciers make me think of the North pole, and then I start thinking about Santa Claus, and the next words out of my mouth are "ever notice how all classic Christmas movies have greed as the basic theme?" would that make me Ne-dom or crazy?!

I'd class those as Si connections. They're concrete, and you're thinking of things that you've come to associate with each other through previous experience of them being found or mentioned in the same context.

I think typical everyday Ne associations could be for example "Damn that summer sun, everybody loves and looks forward to it and then it melts our ice cream as if it's jealous of the attention we give it, like that naughty boy I just saw stomping on other children's sandcastles. He'd have managed to stomp on more of them if he'd acted nice and made them all relax around him first, like the comforting warm glow of the sunlight we bask in as it melts everything and sets cars alight and burns our skin and gives us cancer. And still we wish away the rest of every year until it comes, just as we fall for the pretty decor and dream-like imagery of Christmas every winter, only to end up fatter and poorer and more stressed out, before forgetting this and spending the rest of the year romanticising and longing for it again." The first words out of your mouth might be "No I don't want another ice cream, it'll probably disappoint me and I'll never get back the minutes spent standing in line waiting for it when I could have been swimming instead!" Just an example, I'm not that grumpy.

The fact that Sensors do it too doesn't mean it isn't iNtuition. I can make the kind of associations you make above as well. I don't know anyone who doesn't use all four perceiving functions. You can't navigate the world as a human without them. Personality theory addresses preference, not ability.

 

[onemoretime]

You're the first person I've heard suggest that. In everything I've read, those were considered N over S.

Big picture means not caught up in the moment... which is definitely P. Se users, more conscious of their surroundings than Ne users, are less likely to show this. I think this is where the confusion comes from.

Maybe. If it's something "intangible" than I definitely see where that's lacking in me - and in most Ss. But let me give an example: comedy (well... good comedy) is often mentioned as a Ne dominated field - it was in this thread as well. I can see that in the case of comedians who truly make obscure connections - say, Steve Martin or Stephen Colbert. The fantastical is substituted for the realistic. But on a thread earlier this month about Jon Stewart, I was the only one who suggested he was likely a Sensor. Besides the fact that he's funnier than most people (okay, everyone) I know, I don't see that he uses any kind of functional wizardry in his routine. It all seems pretty grounded and basic to me.

Now, please - I don't bring that up to start a discussion about Jon Stewart's (or any other comedian's) type. If you want to join that debate, there's already a thread for it. I just use it as an illustration of what I see as the difference between what actually is Ne - [the Martin/Colbert style] and what I think is often lumped in with Ne [pretty much any reality-based connection].

Is that kind of what you mean by the difference between logical connections (a function of Thinking) and instantaneous, completely random connections?

Ne is focused on the real world. Anything fantastical is simply used as an analogy, and isn't meant to exist by itself (which is much more of an Ni trait). That's why most people see Stewart as an ENTP - his humor is more based on "you do know that what you're saying means this, and if that's the case, it also means this, this and this", even though those connections may not be immediately apparent.

This is part of the Ne arrogance, as well. We simply can't understand why others don't immediately notice these implications as well.

 

[brainheart]

Something I'm noticing: It seems that it's typically the people who categorize themselves as 'N's who see things as more black and white; by this I mean, "I use intuition and don't sense; those who sense don't use intuition." I'm not saying that this happens across the board, but it seems to be a trend. It seems counter to their definition of intuition, which I can't help but consider ironic.

Ruthie, you make a bunch of awesome observations, which leads to something that needs to be said. Observation can often be misinterpreted as intuition. I have a keen eye which allows me to discover parallels, based on what I've either experienced first-hand or read. Is that intuition? My suspicion is no. Does that mean I don't use intuition? No. Is it possible that I use sensing more than intuition and feel more comfortable with it? Yes. Could that be why I am likely an ISFP and not an INFP? Yes.

 

[onemoretime]

Something I'm noticing: It seems that it's typically the people who categorize themselves as 'N's who see things as more black and white; by this I mean, "I use intuition and don't sense; those who sense don't use intuition." I'm not saying that this happens across the board, but it seems to be a trend. It seems counter to their definition of intuition, which I can't help but consider ironic.

Ruthie, you make a bunch of awesome observations, which leads to something that needs to be said. Observation can often be misinterpreted as intuition. I have a keen eye which allows me to discover parallels, based on what I've either experienced first-hand or read. Is that intuition? My suspicion is no. Does that mean I don't use intuition? No. Is it possible that I use sensing more than intuition and feel more comfortable with it? Yes. Could that be why I am likely an ISFP and not an INFP? Yes.

Se+Te = powerful pattern-creating tool. That's why xSFPs tend to be such good artists. However, it's deliberative and experience based, while intuition is more subconscious. It's not that we end up at consistently different results, it's that we've taken different paths to get there.

 

[Ruthie]

Big picture means not caught up in the moment... which is definitely P. Se users, more conscious of their surroundings than Ne users, are less likely to show this. I think this is where the confusion comes from.



Ne is focused on the real world. Anything fantastical is simply used as an analogy, and isn't meant to exist by itself (which is much more of an Ni trait). That's why most people see Stewart as an ENTP - his humor is more based on "you do know that what you're saying means this, and if that's the case, it also means this, this and this", even though those connections may not be immediately apparent.

This is part of the Ne arrogance, as well. We simply can't understand why others don't immediately notice these implications as well.

But there's always a logical basis for Stewart's associations. It's all very prosecutorial. And he immediately picks up on inconsistencies - which would seem to be more common in Se or Si.

I've read a lot on this board that assumes Sensors (and particularly SJs) think in tortoise-paced steps, and have little interest in or ability to extrapolate consequences, comprehend theory, or make quick connections between ideas. My only point is that if that is the measure, a lot of people (like me) will test as Ns, and then the proportion of Ns in the population will be above the few percent that it's often assumed to be.

 

[Ruthie]

Something I'm noticing: It seems that it's typically the people who categorize themselves as 'N's who see things as more black and white; by this I mean, "I use intuition and don't sense; those who sense don't use intuition." I'm not saying that this happens across the board, but it seems to be a trend. It seems counter to their definition of intuition, which I can't help but consider ironic.

Ruthie, you make a bunch of awesome observations, which leads to something that needs to be said. Observation can often be misinterpreted as intuition. I have a keen eye which allows me to discover parallels, based on what I've either experienced first-hand or read. Is that intuition? My suspicion is no. Does that mean I don't use intuition? No. Is it possible that I use sensing more than intuition and feel more comfortable with it? Yes. Could that be why I am likely an ISFP and not an INFP? Yes.

Thanks, brainheart.

 

[onemoretime]

But there's always a logical basis for Stewart's associations. It's all very prosecutorial. And he immediately picks up on inconsistencies - which would seem to be more common in Se or Si.

Instantaneously picking up on inconsistencies is practically all NeTi does. The difference is that while a Sensing function would generally be content to point that out, NeTi likes to play with that inconsistency, in Stewart's case, for comedic effect.

I've read a lot on this board that assumes Sensors (and particularly SJs) think in tortoise-paced steps, and have little interest in or ability to extrapolate consequences, comprehend theory, or make quick connections between ideas. My only point is that if that is the measure, a lot of people (like me) will test as Ns, and then the proportion of Ns in the population will be above the few percent that it's often assumed to be.

I understand what you're saying, and I certainly do not think those processes are solely the realm of Intuitors. I am saying, however, that these things come more naturally to us, and we're more familiar with them. I hope you realize that oftentimes this seems like more of a curse than a blessing, since it can seriously impede with our interpersonal relationships.

 

[Ruthie]

I understand what you're saying, and I certainly do not think those processes are solely the realm of Intuitors. I am saying, however, that these things come more naturally to us, and we're more familiar with them. I hope you realize that oftentimes this seems like more of a curse than a blessing, since it can seriously impede with our interpersonal relationships.

That's fine. I wasn't saying it as a complaint at all, just pointing out that it's inconsistent to claim something that common is shared by less than 10% of the population. Heh... there I go pointing out inconsistencies... I still think I'm right about Stewart, btw

 

[onemoretime]

That's fine. I wasn't saying it as a complaint at all, just pointing out that it's inconsistent to claim something that common is shared by less than 10% of the population. Heh... there I go pointing out inconsistencies... I still think I'm right about Stewart, btw

That's OK, none of this is real, anyway

 

[brainheart]

Se+Te = powerful pattern-creating tool. That's why xSFPs tend to be such good artists. However, it's deliberative and experience based, while intuition is more subconscious. It's not that we end up at consistently different results, it's that we've taken different paths to get there.

Okay, I get what your saying, but when you word something like that, it makes it sound like XSFPs are sitting there, thinking about everything they do, as if it doesn't just 'come' to them, too. Which, in my experience, it does. So it can seem pretty subconscious, just like intuition.

For example... do you think that when a pro tennis player swings the racket she is deliberately taking into account all of the factors which have affected her game in the past? My guess is no. It probably just happens.

For this reason, I think intuition and sensing (especially if you use that sensing in more intellectual/artistic pursuits) can be confused pretty easily.

 

[brainheart]

I still think I'm right about Stewart, btw

Well, I just read his book Naked Pictures of Famous People and it was sure like Woody Allen's writing, who is supposedly an ISTP. Just making an observation... although I wouldn't rule out ENTP for him. Se+Ti can be pretty remarkable at humor coupled with pointing out inconsistencies as well.

Oh and Ruthie, I've wondered about the conundrum of how N-types are supposedly the rarest of specimens yet they seem to be the majority on every list of esteemable celebrities, relegating the SJs and SPs to fuddy-duddys and airheads, minus a few 'token' exceptions.

 

[onemoretime]

Okay, I get what your saying, but when you word something like that, it makes it sound like XSFPs are sitting there, thinking about everything they do, as if it doesn't just 'come' to them, too. Which, in my experience, it does. So it can seem pretty subconscious, just like intuition.

For example... do you think that when a pro tennis player swings the racket she is deliberately taking into account all of the factors which have affected her game in the past? My guess is no. It probably just happens.

For this reason, I think intuition and sensing (especially if you use that sensing in more intellectual/artistic pursuits) can be confused pretty easily.

The difference is that it just "comes" to them because of countless instances of practice and repetition, and the recollection is much more holistic. An intuitor, on the other hand, takes the bits and pieces previously collected and arranges them on the fly.

S - Situation A means B (A and B being very large matrices of information)
N - Data point A means B which implies C,D,E, which also implies F, but not G, so on and so forth

You see the distinction?

 

[brainheart]

So any 'natural' athlete who has had little to no training must be an intuitive then?

According to your definition I am most definitely an intuitive, just so you know.

 

[Thalassa]

Ok - this is how I think my Ne works for me in terms of writing....I will sit down to write a paper and I will realize that I knew all along what I needed, in terms of source material, and I didn't even plan it out that way. I pick up bits and pieces of information and formulate ideas without even necessarily realizing that I'm doing it until I'm forced to sit down and write on Topic A, B, or C. It's absolutely amazing, and I guess when I'm "procrastinating" I'm actually collecting information and forming new ideas, because when it comes down to it somehow everything I need is just there for me to pull together. That "pulling together" quality also helps me tremendously if I have to sit down and write an essay for a quiz or test. I am often surprised by my own ability to just make patterns and connections and flesh them out seemingly from thin air.

I'm pretty sure this is my Ne.

 

[Thalassa]

An intuitor, on the other hand, takes the bits and pieces previously collected and arranges them on the fly.

Yep, that's pretty much it!

 

[brainheart]

All right. I do that, too. But is that just because I've absorbed what I've read and been formulating ideas in my brain as well, based on my amazing powers of observation? I wrote all of my papers at the last moment in school and aced them. I am a fabulous b.s.er, as well. Is that Ne?

 

[Thalassa]

All right. I do that, too. But is that just because I've absorbed what I've read and been formulating ideas in my brain as well, based on my amazing powers of observation? I wrote all of my papers at the last moment in school and aced them. I am a fabulous b.s.er, as well. Is that Ne?

I'm fairly sure it is. Not everyone can do that.

 

[onemoretime]

So any 'natural' athlete who has had little to no training must be an intuitive then?

According to your definition I am most definitely an intuitive, just so you know.

Learning to use coordinated muscle movements as an infant is a long process which includes lots of repetition. That's generally what athletics is about, right? In that case, it's more likely that a sensor will be a natural athlete, because those actions are processed holistically and consistently, while the intuitive is going to take longer to come up with the set of discrete points that don't end up with him falling on his ass. That's why we suck at dancing at first, but tend to be pretty good at it over time.

You might be. Online tests aren't always right.

 

[brainheart]

I'm beginning to think this whole separation between Ne and Se is a bunch shim-sham flim-flammery. It's just a way for one group to feel superior while the others handle the baser jobs. It reeks of elitism at its finest. And don't tell me that it makes your relationships bad. Please.

By the way, I've only tested ISFP on one on line test out of let's say, fifty. (The others have been INFP and INTP.) But I think the description fits me better than that of INFP, aside from the "ISFPs are more likely to not graduate college" bit.

 

[onemoretime]

I'm beginning to think this whole separation between Ne and Se is a bunch shim-sham flim-flammery. It's just a way for one group to feel superior while the others handle the baser jobs. It reeks of elitism at its finest. And don't tell me that it makes your relationships bad. Please.

That's so NeFi it's ridiculous.