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About Intuition

proximo

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I just "get" things, concepts, easily that some other people don't. I also recognize this quality in others when they share the ability to "get it". Unfortunately, that is my poor description of what intuition is for me.

Yes, same for me. I don't experience this "cloud" metaphor in the OP - things are just clearly obvious, usually.

I'm with INTJMom - I think you sound like an ISxJ, sometimes feeling the pull or twinge of Ne (since everybody has it), but because your Si is so dominant over it, it sort of drowns it out in much the same way that I feel Si - like a half-remembered dream that comes and goes in strange images that you can't quite recall or make sense of, that slip away like eels when you try to grasp at them. In other words, you sound like you're feeling Ne in its guise as an inferior function.

Intuition is exactly your subconscious mind trying to tell you something. People with strong or dominant intuition *do* pick it up, straight away, without trying most of the time. It's not a struggle unless intuition is a weaker function for you.
 

Thalassa

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Wow, for a bunch of intuitives you guys are REALLY bad at describing the marveled "intuition" that you possess.

Maybe it's just because it's "what we do" so it's hard for us to describe it to others. Like, for example, my grandfather was really good at math, and he got frustrated with people who aren't, and at the same time, he wasn't a terribly good teacher, either. So even though he had natural talent at math, and had trouble relating to those who weren't, he also had trouble passing that knowledge on to people who didn't "get it."

Ne is like that for me...I see patterns in things, connections, and I analyze accordingly. I sometimes don't understand why other people can't. So, no, I'm not great at explaining it because it seems like such an innate part of me. I simply recognize if others do it or don't.

Simulated World asked a similar question about how SJs used their strong Si, and their answers weren't much better, so....
 

Eagle

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Maybe it's just because it's "what we do" so it's hard for us to describe it to others. Like, for example, my grandfather was really good at math, and he got frustrated with people who aren't, and at the same time, he wasn't a terribly good teacher, either. So even though he had natural talent at math, and had trouble relating to those who weren't, he also had trouble passing that knowledge on to people who didn't "get it."

Ne is like that for me...I see patterns in things, connections, and I analyze accordingly. I sometimes don't understand why other people can't. So, no, I'm not great at explaining it because it seems like such an innate part of me. I simply recognize if others do it or don't.

Simulated World asked a similar question about how SJs used their strong Si, and their answers weren't much better, so....

I don't think that those things that are most habitual to us are always so easy to explain. :thumbup:
 

Thalassa

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Yes, same for me. I don't experience this "cloud" metaphor in the OP - things are just clearly obvious, usually.

I'm with INTJMom - I think you sound like an ISxJ, sometimes feeling the pull or twinge of Ne (since everybody has it), but because your Si is so dominant over it, it sort of drowns it out in much the same way that I feel Si - like a half-remembered dream that comes and goes in strange images that you can't quite recall or make sense of, that slip away like eels when you try to grasp at them. In other words, you sound like you're feeling Ne in its guise as an inferior function.

Intuition is exactly your subconscious mind trying to tell you something. People with strong or dominant intuition *do* pick it up, straight away, without trying most of the time. It's not a struggle unless intuition is a weaker function for you.

YES! Si is EXACTLY LIKE THIS FOR ME~ dreamy. I experience Si as stubbornly nostalgic early childhood memories, and deep attachments to old songs, and irrational fears (sometimes panic attacks) in unfamiliar situations that seem beyond my control. That is because my Si is inferior, so it's not well-formed for me.
 

proximo

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Yeah... can an ISxJ describe to me just how they develop and follow routines, recognise procedures and recall sensory information? How they explain, just off the cuff, exactly what they did or thought to arrive at a certan point?

The ones I've talked to about it have reacted with incredulity and great amusement when I've told them that this process and those who are adept at it are mysterious and intimidating to me. Because to them it's just natural. And because it's just natural (ie dominant or secondary function) to the majority of the population, that makes it "normal", and it makes me ridiculous for even suggesting that for me it's very difficult. They can see I'm not stupid, and yet I say I can't handle this "simple" thing, therefore either I'm lying, or I've got some kind of disorder, to their eyes.

Edit - same goes for SP's mind you, to whom I've tried to relate my weaknesses with just uh, noticing shit and really just being "present" (in any sense but that of being literally physically present) :mellow:
 

Ruthie

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Why do I feel like I'm back in high school, reading artificially deep poetry and being told I don't "get it?" And yeah, those quotes would be air quotes too.

I'm still trying to figure this Ne-thing out... so, like, if I'm eating ice cream, and the ice cream starts to melt, and that makes me think of global warming and melting glaciers, and glaciers make me think of the North pole, and then I start thinking about Santa Claus, and the next words out of my mouth are "ever notice how all classic Christmas movies have greed as the basic theme?" would that make me Ne-dom or crazy?

Heh, I'm a likely sensor, and I can use sarcasm online!
 

BlackCat

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Maybe it's just because it's "what we do" so it's hard for us to describe it to others. Like, for example, my grandfather was really good at math, and he got frustrated with people who aren't, and at the same time, he wasn't a terribly good teacher, either. So even though he had natural talent at math, and had trouble relating to those who weren't, he also had trouble passing that knowledge on to people who didn't "get it."

Ne is like that for me...I see patterns in things, connections, and I analyze accordingly. I sometimes don't understand why other people can't. So, no, I'm not great at explaining it because it seems like such an innate part of me. I simply recognize if others do it or don't.

Simulated World asked a similar question about how SJs used their strong Si, and their answers weren't much better, so....

Bolded- Actually there were a lot of good answers in there (detailed ones too), and he got his question answered. But that's beside the point...

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post. I was actually being inflammatory to get people to try harder. :D

I don't think that those things that are most habitual to us are always so easy to explain. :thumbup:

Pretty much yeah.
 

proximo

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Why do I feel like I'm back in high school, reading artificially deep poetry and being told I don't "get it?" And yeah, those quotes would be air quotes too.

I'm still trying to figure this Ne-thing out... so, like, if I'm eating ice cream, and the ice cream starts to melt, and that makes me think of global warming and melting glaciers, and glaciers make me think of the North pole, and then I start thinking about Santa Claus, and the next words out of my mouth are "ever notice how all classic Christmas movies have greed as the basic theme?" would that make me Ne-dom or crazy?

Heh, I'm a likely sensor, and I can use sarcasm online!

Well, I'm not trying to be poetic. I'm trying to use whatever words I have in my vocabulary to describe as accurately and truthfully as I can, things from my personal experience. If that all ends up sounding so foreign and weird to you that you can only surmise that it's "artificially deep", then I guess you're *not* getting it, in the sense of not relating to it. Which isn't a crime, obviously.

That chain of thoughts you describe there is not an intuitive one, because each item along it is linked by a clear and obvious connection. If you said you were licking an ice-cream and it put you in mind of gaseous nebulae, which reminded you of a noise a zombie made in a horror movie you saw once but can't remember the title or any other details of, but it made you think about the process of manufacturing pencils and all of this made you realise it was time to clear out the gutters in your house and that if you took a cane with you when walkng the dog, you could use it to nudge him and stop him crossing over in front of you on the leash... *that* would be Ne.

I could probably back-engineer each of those stages and we'd find that arriving at each one was a perfectly logical step because of the way the connections work in my mind between the things I've encountered in my life. They're not arranged linearly, they're not a flow chart. But it'd take hours and hours for me to figure it out myself, this thought process that happened within a second or two in my head - and why bother when the final conclusion is true, and works?
 

Thalassa

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Why do I feel like I'm back in high school, reading artificially deep poetry and being told I don't "get it?" And yeah, those quotes would be air quotes too.

I'm still trying to figure this Ne-thing out... so, like, if I'm eating ice cream, and the ice cream starts to melt, and that makes me think of global warming and melting glaciers, and glaciers make me think of the North pole, and then I start thinking about Santa Claus, and the next words out of my mouth are "ever notice how all classic Christmas movies have greed as the basic theme?" would that make me Ne-dom or crazy?

Heh, I'm a likely sensor, and I can use sarcasm online!

I personally am good at spotting greater themes of human nature and societal issues in literature and history. I can easily see how people from one century are incredibly like the people of today even though we seem so different superficialy. I can see how the same behavior is carried out in cultures that look extremely dissimilar. I tend to excel at analyzing psychological and social themes in literature and poetry. I do well in "interdisciplanary classes" which connect different subjects to each other. I'm also an amateur psychoanalyst.

How do you know it was "artificially deep" if you really didn't get it? I don't say that algebra and physics are worthless subjects for artificially intelligent people even if it's extraordinarily difficult for me to grasp the concepts applied within those subjects.

There may be some judgement toward Ss from the N side, but I also see some mocking here from the S side towards the Ns....just because what we do isn't what you are personally good at doesn't make it "artificially deep" or useless.
 

Thalassa

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Bolded- Actually there were a lot of good answers in there (detailed ones too), and he got his question answered. But that's beside the point...

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post. I was actually being inflammatory to get people to try harder. :D



.

There weren't any detailed answers from SJs in that thread for the first two or three pages. I'm excited at the prospect of going back to that thread and seeing his question answered. I guess I stopped checking it before I should have. I'm glad there's more information there now.
 

BlackCat

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How do you know it was "artificially deep" if you really didn't get it? I don't say that algebra and physics are worthless subjects for artificially intelligent people even if it's extraordinarily difficult for me to grasp the concepts applied within those subjects.

I'm pretty sure artificially deep was just an expression, since I get what she's saying. Poetry that would be artificially deep would (if I'm right) seem over the top, annoyingly confusing, and like the poet was trying too hard to be artistic. Or it's just annoying to try to comprehend. I'm gonna be honest, with some poetry we had to read in English, I'd get a headache trying to interpret it. :tongue:
 

Ruthie

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Wow - I didn't think there would be so many defenders of bad high school poetry. My point had nothing to do with the relative value of poetry - it was an analogy, for crying out loud. Sheesh.

Vagrant Farce said that intuition was about being able to make associations between disciplines/topics and that most stand-up comedians are Ne-dom. The implication is that Sensors (or presumably introverted intuits) would be unable to make links between unrelated topics. I suggested that being able to connect one topic to another isn't all that unique, and suddenly the definition changed: "maybe 'making connections' isn't the best way to put it..."

Like being told I was insufficiently deep to relate to the poetical depth of a 15-year old.

Bottom line is, I know Ne exists, and I know I probably don't have it, but I also think it's over-used to describe something that's actually pretty common.
 

Thalassa

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I'm pretty sure artificially deep was just an expression, since I get what she's saying. Poetry that would be artificially deep would (if I'm right) seem over the top, annoyingly confusing, and like the poet was trying too hard to be artistic. Or it's just annoying to try to comprehend. I'm gonna be honest, with some poetry we had to read in English, I'd get a headache trying to interpret it. :tongue:

It's a very subjective opinion.

For example, some people do not like Poe because his language seems "overinflated" but that "overinflated" language is exactly what does an incredible job of striking up intense imagery and communicating exactly what he's trying to say effectively.

On the other hand, some people hate Wordsworth because his poetry often described the beauty in farmers working, trees, flowers, and animals. Poe, as a matter of fact, made fun of Wordsworth for waxing poetic about a lamb.

Both are considered great poets. I happen to like both of them for different reasons. I wouldn't call either of them "artificially deep" but someone who didn't like Poe's use of language or Wordsworth's earthy subject matter might express that extremely subjective opinion.

Poetry from the middle centuries (pre-Romanticism) tends to be extremely exacting, following a structured academic formula, and still other people get annoyed by that. I don't particularly like that sort of poetry, but that's my subjective opinion.

Generally poetry written by teenagers might come across as "artificially deep" if they are trying to be overtly poetic about something that they've personally have never even experienced (for instance, merely copying the style of an acomplished poet, or writing about the "beautiful sadness" of death if they've never known anyone who died). That's the only thing I can think of that would truly be artificially deep.
 

Thalassa

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Wow - I didn't think there would be so many defenders of bad high school poetry. My point had nothing to do with the relative value of poetry - it was an analogy, for crying out loud. Sheesh.

Vagrant Farce said that intuition was about being able to make associations between disciplines/topics and that most stand-up comedians are Ne-dom. The implication is that Sensors (or presumably introverted intuits) would be unable to make links between unrelated topics. I suggested that being able to connect one topic to another isn't all that unique, and suddenly the definition changed: "maybe 'making connections' isn't the best way to put it..."

Like being told I was insufficiently deep to relate to the poetical depth of a 15-year old.

Bottom line is, I know Ne exists, and I know I probably don't have it, but I also think it's over-used to describe something that's actually pretty common.

Being an Ne dom is not as common as being an Se or Si dom.

I think that Vagrant Farce is right. Many people that I have encountered in my lifetime do not seem to be able to make some of these connections, though different people use them in different ways. It was totally right for Vagrant Farce to embellish the definition.

I don't claim to be stellar at the things that SJs or NTs are good at. I'm not going to pretend I'm extremely efficient, organized, or good at memorizing licence plates numbers. I'm not going to make wild claims that I'm great at the hard sciences. By the same token, I don't think it's especially wise for someone to think they are better at Ne than they are.
 

VagrantFarce

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Vagrant Farce said that intuition was about being able to make associations between disciplines/topics and that most stand-up comedians are Ne-dom. The implication is that Sensors (or presumably introverted intuits) would be unable to make links between unrelated topics. I suggested that being able to connect one topic to another isn't all that unique, and suddenly the definition changed: "maybe 'making connections' isn't the best way to put it..."

Like being told I was insufficiently deep to relate to the poetical depth of a 15-year old.

The words I used at first were creating the wrong impression. So I reworded it in a way I thought would be clearer ("Ne is the act of looking for a wider context"). I'm not trying to make any sort of implication about you, I was just trying to help.
 

onemoretime

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You know what Ne is? It's getting from point A to B instantaneously in your brain. It's not that you make the connection as much as you just do it really, really quickly. It's also living in a constant state of deja vu - everything reminds you of somewhere you've been before, or a dream you once had. It's a fundamental understanding of the threads that are influenced by every action. It's following the path many say does not exist.

It's also being gravely aware of how short the days are in front of you, and how little time you really have.
 

proximo

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I thought the main offence wasn't that poetry itself was insulted - nobody could reasonably argue that shitty, pretentious poetry doesn't exist. It seemed that she was implying that the people trying to explain intuition here were just as pretentious as it, by using it as an analogy of her viewpoint on N behaviour. As though making an effort to understand it (the poetry, for which read N's generally) as explained by N's themselves were something akin to falling for the "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon and therefore a waste of time. I can imagine that being the way many N's would've read that post.

What seems to some to be people defending poetry, is actually (to my eyes) people defending *themselves*, the validity and sincerity of their viewpoints, through extending and explaining alternative viewpoints on what they saw as the poetry analogy.

Forgetting, perhaps, that there was no need to take umbridge, as SJ's don't make analogies - they make similes :alttongue:

You know what Ne is? It's getting from point A to B instantaneously in your brain. It's not that you make the connection as much as you just do it really, really quickly. It's also living in a constant state of deja vu - everything reminds you of somewhere you've been before, or a dream you once had. It's a fundamental understanding of the threads that are influenced by every action. It's following the path many say does not exist.

It's also being gravely aware of how short the days are in front of you, and how little time you really have.

+1, though I'd say more like getting from A to D without needing to go through B and C en route. Which is fine, as long as you can keep going forwards. But if you have to go back for some reason, as often happens in life, you encounter difficulties, as you have to go back to the last stage you knew you got right... which is a lot further back for someone that skipped a load to get where they are, than for someone who got there from the step just before. Hence, easier to abandon the whole line of enquiry and start something completely different.
 

onemoretime

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+1, though I'd say more like getting from A to D without needing to go through B and C en route.

Or understanding that B and C are irrelevant :). B and C only really pop up when you have to explain the logical chain to others. The connection between A and D in one's own head are apparent enough to make a coherent connection.
 

Ruthie

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Being an Ne dom is not as common as being an Se or Si dom.

I think that Vagrant Farce is right. Many people that I have encountered in my lifetime do not seem to be able to make some of these connections, though different people use them in different ways. It was totally right for Vagrant Farce to embellish the definition.

I don't claim to be stellar at the things that SJs or NTs are good at. I'm not going to pretend I'm extremely efficient, organized, or good at memorizing licence plates numbers. I'm not going to make wild claims that I'm great at the hard sciences. By the same token, I don't think it's especially wise for someone to think they are better at Ne than they are.

Except presumably, the reason you don't claim to be good at memorizing license plates or learning the hard sciences is because you actually don't have those skills, and not because you are concerned that having those skills would be seen as moving in on someone else's functional turf. But I (and many many others) actually are capable of making quick connections between unrelated disciplines in exactly the same way you describe: take your example about relating ways of life in the past to ways of life in the present (or even extrapolating those principles to the future). I don't get what the big mystery about that skill is - it's just a matter of drawing parallels and identifying universal principles. If that's all intuition is, then I can promise you, intuits comprise well over a few percent of the population.

I think this is what confuses people who take the Myers Briggs test. The basic test asks questions about concept vs. detail; theory vs. fact; associative thinking vs. linear thinking, etc... I spent years thinking I was an N because of those questions and wondering why I couldn't relate to either the NF or NT temperament descriptions: I'm not good with hard sciences, I don't always fall back on 'the rational,' I'm not creative in the least, and I can't empathize all that well.

The cognitive functions tests were a bit more clear to me because Ni and Ne seemed to require something else - something subconscious or (in the case of Ni) almost supernatural. I knew for a fact I didn't "pull answers out of an invisible stream of ideas" or "use a totem or other symbolic focal device to spot unseen trends." (probably got those way wrong... trying to write them from memory).

My problem is not in the least with Ne (or Ni) as a function, but only the description of them. You can't have it both ways: intuition can't be something as simple as making connections or drawing parallels and at the same time be seen as so rare in the population. If it's having a legitimate "aha!" moment where the subconscious creates something where nothing existed before - yeah, that's an unusual ability. If it's being able to understand a theory or make comparisons between disciplines, that's not such an unusual gift and that definition has probably led a lot of Sensors to misidentify on that basis.
 

Thalassa

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Except presumably, the reason you don't claim to be good at memorizing license plates or learning the hard sciences is because you actually don't have those skills, and not because you are concerned that having those skills would be seen as moving in on someone else's functional turf. But I (and many many others) actually are capable of making quick connections between unrelated disciplines in exactly the same way you describe: take your example about relating ways of life in the past to ways of life in the present (or even extrapolating those principles to the future). I don't get what the big mystery about that skill is - it's just a matter of drawing parallels and identifying universal principles. If that's all intuition is, then I can promise you, intuits comprise well over a few percent of the population.

I strongly disagree. SJs, because of Si, have completely different strengths, on the whole, than NFs. Same with NTs. It's not just about having certain hobbies or skills. The ability to almost instantaneously perceive underlying principals and realities is not something that most people do, or even care to do. I'm around people every day - listening to them talk, reading my peers papers in English classes, and interacting with people on the Internet - and I'm telling you that Ns do, in fact, make up a much smaller segment of the population.

I think this is what confuses people who take the Myers Briggs test. The basic test asks questions about concept vs. detail; theory vs. fact; associative thinking vs. linear thinking, etc... I spent years thinking I was an N because of those questions and wondering why I couldn't relate to either the NF or NT temperament descriptions: I'm not good with hard sciences, I don't always fall back on 'the rational,' I'm not creative in the least, and I can't empathize all that well.

Why did you think you were an N?

The cognitive functions tests were a bit more clear to me because Ni and Ne seemed to require something else - something subconscious or (in the case of Ni) almost supernatural. I knew for a fact I didn't "pull answers out of an invisible stream of ideas" or "use a totem or other symbolic focal device to spot unseen trends." (probably got those way wrong... trying to write them from memory).

My problem is not in the least with Ne (or Ni) as a function, but only the description of them. You can't have it both ways: intuition can't be something as simple as making connections or drawing parallels and at the same time be seen as so rare in the population. If it's having a legitimate "aha!" moment where the subconscious creates something where nothing existed before - yeah, that's an unusual ability. If it's being able to understand a theory or make comparisons between disciplines, that's not such an unusual gift and that definition has probably led a lot of Sensors to misidentify on that basis.


What you describe as "aha!" is Ni. Ne is the ability to see underlying patterns in everything on a subconscious level (which is probably why it is so difficult for Ns to effectively describe this process outside of its results), and analyze them, and I know from my own personal experience that it's a rare ability in the general population. It's not that the general population can't see them, it's just something that takes more effort on their part, something that doesn't come naturally and quickly to them.

I have a little Si, and if you are an ISTJ you have a little Ne. Everyone uses a variety of functions, but what makes you a particular type is your primary preferences and strongest ability.

I have no idea why some Ss mistype as Ns. I have a friend, for example, who totally mistyped herself as an ENFJ when she is obviously an ESFJ and has even told me herself that she prefers subjects which are factual, hands-on, and related to her daily life. I think it's because both are Fe dom, plus she believes she has latent psychic abilities, or "women's intuition" if you will, and that's how Ni - the auxillary function of ENFJ - is described to some degree.
 
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