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Thread: About Intuition

  1. #31
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    How do you know it was "artificially deep" if you really didn't get it? I don't say that algebra and physics are worthless subjects for artificially intelligent people even if it's extraordinarily difficult for me to grasp the concepts applied within those subjects.
    I'm pretty sure artificially deep was just an expression, since I get what she's saying. Poetry that would be artificially deep would (if I'm right) seem over the top, annoyingly confusing, and like the poet was trying too hard to be artistic. Or it's just annoying to try to comprehend. I'm gonna be honest, with some poetry we had to read in English, I'd get a headache trying to interpret it.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Wow - I didn't think there would be so many defenders of bad high school poetry. My point had nothing to do with the relative value of poetry - it was an analogy, for crying out loud. Sheesh.

    Vagrant Farce said that intuition was about being able to make associations between disciplines/topics and that most stand-up comedians are Ne-dom. The implication is that Sensors (or presumably introverted intuits) would be unable to make links between unrelated topics. I suggested that being able to connect one topic to another isn't all that unique, and suddenly the definition changed: "maybe 'making connections' isn't the best way to put it..."

    Like being told I was insufficiently deep to relate to the poetical depth of a 15-year old.

    Bottom line is, I know Ne exists, and I know I probably don't have it, but I also think it's over-used to describe something that's actually pretty common.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I'm pretty sure artificially deep was just an expression, since I get what she's saying. Poetry that would be artificially deep would (if I'm right) seem over the top, annoyingly confusing, and like the poet was trying too hard to be artistic. Or it's just annoying to try to comprehend. I'm gonna be honest, with some poetry we had to read in English, I'd get a headache trying to interpret it.
    It's a very subjective opinion.

    For example, some people do not like Poe because his language seems "overinflated" but that "overinflated" language is exactly what does an incredible job of striking up intense imagery and communicating exactly what he's trying to say effectively.

    On the other hand, some people hate Wordsworth because his poetry often described the beauty in farmers working, trees, flowers, and animals. Poe, as a matter of fact, made fun of Wordsworth for waxing poetic about a lamb.

    Both are considered great poets. I happen to like both of them for different reasons. I wouldn't call either of them "artificially deep" but someone who didn't like Poe's use of language or Wordsworth's earthy subject matter might express that extremely subjective opinion.

    Poetry from the middle centuries (pre-Romanticism) tends to be extremely exacting, following a structured academic formula, and still other people get annoyed by that. I don't particularly like that sort of poetry, but that's my subjective opinion.

    Generally poetry written by teenagers might come across as "artificially deep" if they are trying to be overtly poetic about something that they've personally have never even experienced (for instance, merely copying the style of an acomplished poet, or writing about the "beautiful sadness" of death if they've never known anyone who died). That's the only thing I can think of that would truly be artificially deep.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Wow - I didn't think there would be so many defenders of bad high school poetry. My point had nothing to do with the relative value of poetry - it was an analogy, for crying out loud. Sheesh.

    Vagrant Farce said that intuition was about being able to make associations between disciplines/topics and that most stand-up comedians are Ne-dom. The implication is that Sensors (or presumably introverted intuits) would be unable to make links between unrelated topics. I suggested that being able to connect one topic to another isn't all that unique, and suddenly the definition changed: "maybe 'making connections' isn't the best way to put it..."

    Like being told I was insufficiently deep to relate to the poetical depth of a 15-year old.

    Bottom line is, I know Ne exists, and I know I probably don't have it, but I also think it's over-used to describe something that's actually pretty common.
    Being an Ne dom is not as common as being an Se or Si dom.

    I think that Vagrant Farce is right. Many people that I have encountered in my lifetime do not seem to be able to make some of these connections, though different people use them in different ways. It was totally right for Vagrant Farce to embellish the definition.

    I don't claim to be stellar at the things that SJs or NTs are good at. I'm not going to pretend I'm extremely efficient, organized, or good at memorizing licence plates numbers. I'm not going to make wild claims that I'm great at the hard sciences. By the same token, I don't think it's especially wise for someone to think they are better at Ne than they are.

  5. #35
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Vagrant Farce said that intuition was about being able to make associations between disciplines/topics and that most stand-up comedians are Ne-dom. The implication is that Sensors (or presumably introverted intuits) would be unable to make links between unrelated topics. I suggested that being able to connect one topic to another isn't all that unique, and suddenly the definition changed: "maybe 'making connections' isn't the best way to put it..."

    Like being told I was insufficiently deep to relate to the poetical depth of a 15-year old.
    The words I used at first were creating the wrong impression. So I reworded it in a way I thought would be clearer ("Ne is the act of looking for a wider context"). I'm not trying to make any sort of implication about you, I was just trying to help.
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  6. #36
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    You know what Ne is? It's getting from point A to B instantaneously in your brain. It's not that you make the connection as much as you just do it really, really quickly. It's also living in a constant state of deja vu - everything reminds you of somewhere you've been before, or a dream you once had. It's a fundamental understanding of the threads that are influenced by every action. It's following the path many say does not exist.

    It's also being gravely aware of how short the days are in front of you, and how little time you really have.

  7. #37
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    I thought the main offence wasn't that poetry itself was insulted - nobody could reasonably argue that shitty, pretentious poetry doesn't exist. It seemed that she was implying that the people trying to explain intuition here were just as pretentious as it, by using it as an analogy of her viewpoint on N behaviour. As though making an effort to understand it (the poetry, for which read N's generally) as explained by N's themselves were something akin to falling for the "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon and therefore a waste of time. I can imagine that being the way many N's would've read that post.

    What seems to some to be people defending poetry, is actually (to my eyes) people defending *themselves*, the validity and sincerity of their viewpoints, through extending and explaining alternative viewpoints on what they saw as the poetry analogy.

    Forgetting, perhaps, that there was no need to take umbridge, as SJ's don't make analogies - they make similes

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You know what Ne is? It's getting from point A to B instantaneously in your brain. It's not that you make the connection as much as you just do it really, really quickly. It's also living in a constant state of deja vu - everything reminds you of somewhere you've been before, or a dream you once had. It's a fundamental understanding of the threads that are influenced by every action. It's following the path many say does not exist.

    It's also being gravely aware of how short the days are in front of you, and how little time you really have.
    +1, though I'd say more like getting from A to D without needing to go through B and C en route. Which is fine, as long as you can keep going forwards. But if you have to go back for some reason, as often happens in life, you encounter difficulties, as you have to go back to the last stage you knew you got right... which is a lot further back for someone that skipped a load to get where they are, than for someone who got there from the step just before. Hence, easier to abandon the whole line of enquiry and start something completely different.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  8. #38
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    +1, though I'd say more like getting from A to D without needing to go through B and C en route.
    Or understanding that B and C are irrelevant . B and C only really pop up when you have to explain the logical chain to others. The connection between A and D in one's own head are apparent enough to make a coherent connection.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Being an Ne dom is not as common as being an Se or Si dom.

    I think that Vagrant Farce is right. Many people that I have encountered in my lifetime do not seem to be able to make some of these connections, though different people use them in different ways. It was totally right for Vagrant Farce to embellish the definition.

    I don't claim to be stellar at the things that SJs or NTs are good at. I'm not going to pretend I'm extremely efficient, organized, or good at memorizing licence plates numbers. I'm not going to make wild claims that I'm great at the hard sciences. By the same token, I don't think it's especially wise for someone to think they are better at Ne than they are.
    Except presumably, the reason you don't claim to be good at memorizing license plates or learning the hard sciences is because you actually don't have those skills, and not because you are concerned that having those skills would be seen as moving in on someone else's functional turf. But I (and many many others) actually are capable of making quick connections between unrelated disciplines in exactly the same way you describe: take your example about relating ways of life in the past to ways of life in the present (or even extrapolating those principles to the future). I don't get what the big mystery about that skill is - it's just a matter of drawing parallels and identifying universal principles. If that's all intuition is, then I can promise you, intuits comprise well over a few percent of the population.

    I think this is what confuses people who take the Myers Briggs test. The basic test asks questions about concept vs. detail; theory vs. fact; associative thinking vs. linear thinking, etc... I spent years thinking I was an N because of those questions and wondering why I couldn't relate to either the NF or NT temperament descriptions: I'm not good with hard sciences, I don't always fall back on 'the rational,' I'm not creative in the least, and I can't empathize all that well.

    The cognitive functions tests were a bit more clear to me because Ni and Ne seemed to require something else - something subconscious or (in the case of Ni) almost supernatural. I knew for a fact I didn't "pull answers out of an invisible stream of ideas" or "use a totem or other symbolic focal device to spot unseen trends." (probably got those way wrong... trying to write them from memory).

    My problem is not in the least with Ne (or Ni) as a function, but only the description of them. You can't have it both ways: intuition can't be something as simple as making connections or drawing parallels and at the same time be seen as so rare in the population. If it's having a legitimate "aha!" moment where the subconscious creates something where nothing existed before - yeah, that's an unusual ability. If it's being able to understand a theory or make comparisons between disciplines, that's not such an unusual gift and that definition has probably led a lot of Sensors to misidentify on that basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Except presumably, the reason you don't claim to be good at memorizing license plates or learning the hard sciences is because you actually don't have those skills, and not because you are concerned that having those skills would be seen as moving in on someone else's functional turf. But I (and many many others) actually are capable of making quick connections between unrelated disciplines in exactly the same way you describe: take your example about relating ways of life in the past to ways of life in the present (or even extrapolating those principles to the future). I don't get what the big mystery about that skill is - it's just a matter of drawing parallels and identifying universal principles. If that's all intuition is, then I can promise you, intuits comprise well over a few percent of the population.
    I strongly disagree. SJs, because of Si, have completely different strengths, on the whole, than NFs. Same with NTs. It's not just about having certain hobbies or skills. The ability to almost instantaneously perceive underlying principals and realities is not something that most people do, or even care to do. I'm around people every day - listening to them talk, reading my peers papers in English classes, and interacting with people on the Internet - and I'm telling you that Ns do, in fact, make up a much smaller segment of the population.

    I think this is what confuses people who take the Myers Briggs test. The basic test asks questions about concept vs. detail; theory vs. fact; associative thinking vs. linear thinking, etc... I spent years thinking I was an N because of those questions and wondering why I couldn't relate to either the NF or NT temperament descriptions: I'm not good with hard sciences, I don't always fall back on 'the rational,' I'm not creative in the least, and I can't empathize all that well.
    Why did you think you were an N?

    The cognitive functions tests were a bit more clear to me because Ni and Ne seemed to require something else - something subconscious or (in the case of Ni) almost supernatural. I knew for a fact I didn't "pull answers out of an invisible stream of ideas" or "use a totem or other symbolic focal device to spot unseen trends." (probably got those way wrong... trying to write them from memory).

    My problem is not in the least with Ne (or Ni) as a function, but only the description of them. You can't have it both ways: intuition can't be something as simple as making connections or drawing parallels and at the same time be seen as so rare in the population. If it's having a legitimate "aha!" moment where the subconscious creates something where nothing existed before - yeah, that's an unusual ability. If it's being able to understand a theory or make comparisons between disciplines, that's not such an unusual gift and that definition has probably led a lot of Sensors to misidentify on that basis.

    What you describe as "aha!" is Ni. Ne is the ability to see underlying patterns in everything on a subconscious level (which is probably why it is so difficult for Ns to effectively describe this process outside of its results), and analyze them, and I know from my own personal experience that it's a rare ability in the general population. It's not that the general population can't see them, it's just something that takes more effort on their part, something that doesn't come naturally and quickly to them.

    I have a little Si, and if you are an ISTJ you have a little Ne. Everyone uses a variety of functions, but what makes you a particular type is your primary preferences and strongest ability.

    I have no idea why some Ss mistype as Ns. I have a friend, for example, who totally mistyped herself as an ENFJ when she is obviously an ESFJ and has even told me herself that she prefers subjects which are factual, hands-on, and related to her daily life. I think it's because both are Fe dom, plus she believes she has latent psychic abilities, or "women's intuition" if you will, and that's how Ni - the auxillary function of ENFJ - is described to some degree.

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